Moderated Thermite: Was it there or not?

[Dave Rogers]

What I've found is that even the "premiere"(and I use this term very loosely now because I mostly consider you ignorant as a result of our conversations(not all of you)) debunkers can't find a consensus.

Of course we can't. His actions are not completely sane. Since they don't make sense, it's a little difficult to make sense of them. We have varying opinions, which is what you'd expect from a group of random individuals with various specialisms, but none of us is qualified to give a diagnosis. And if we did give one, and agreed on it, I'm sure you'd be the first to cry foul by accusing us of sticking to a rigidly preset government agenda.

As for you say you think did or didn't happen on 9/11, I don't think any of us believe you. We've all seen the pretence before. The classic "I don't really think 9/11 was a conspiracy, but I have one or two questions" scam has been seen so many times round here, it's known as The Mark of Woo. I'm impressed that you've lasted so long without the usual transformation into the frothing-at-the-mouth, faster-than-freefall, no-debris-at-the-Pentagon nutter accusing us all of being government agents who'll be first against the wall when The Truth comes out, but I suspect it's only a matter of time.

Dave

 

[Dave Rogers]

In a 1993 interview, Skilling stated that the Towers were designed to withstand the impact and fires resulting from the collision of a large jetliner such as Boeing 707 or McDonald Douglas DC-8.

Nope. They weren't designed to withstand the impact and fires. They were designed without reference to airliner impact. After the design was complete, Skilling and/or Robertson did three pages of longhand calculations which told them that the structure could survive the impact, as indeed it did. They did no calculations at all of the results of the fire, because such calculations were impossible at the time. Therefore, any comments they made about the impact were supported by only very sketchy calculations - because nothing more was possible - and anything they may have said about the fires was no more than guesswork.

Dave

 

[bill smith]

No they didn't. They thouight that the plane would punch through the exterior columns like a screen door but leave the structure standing - exactly what happened.

Dave

No Dave. Frank DeMartini who made the statement you are referring to did not hypothesise the plane entering the building. He hypothesised a few of the box columns possibly being broken. but definitely not a line of 33 of them. (Like sticking a pencil into a screen door ' as I recall.

'Remember? 'puncturing the netting but it really does nothing to the screen netting ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sO1JxpVb2eU

PS. Come to think of it Frank DeMartini could have been a major thorn in the side of the perps. Lucky for them that he was killed in the WTC on 9/11 himself.(Though I can't imagine what he was doing there on that particular day so many years later)

 

[carlitos]

invitation

What I've found is that even the "premiere"(and I use this term very loosely now because I mostly consider you ignorant as a result of our conversations(not all of you)) debunkers can't find a consensus.

Here is a link. Please help us with our consensus by providing your theory as to what happened that day.

 

[alienentity]

Phew, I was wondering how much more it would take to get Macky to ignore me. You failed to provide any legitimate answers anyhow....just the same Duhbunker canned lines....

...with regards to your disposition; if you can't take it Ryan, don't dish it out.

Beachnut and Trutherslie, could you ignore me as well?

Well that was rather stupid of you to persist in attacking Mr. Mackey. I don't suppose you realize why...

In any case, do you have any specific points to discuss, or any specific questions remaining? All you seem to have posted in the last 24 hours are complaints about how you've been treated.

If you're looking for more info on the thermite issues, there are a couple of good threads on the forum. Here's a link to a Sunstealer post, followed by Mackey and others

A thread focusing on sunstealer

A thread on Frederic Henry-Couannier

A translation I found: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=5011369#post5011369

An interesting exchange with a Norwegian nano-scientists Ola Nilsen and others

That's about all I've got at the moment.

Try not to get your knickers in a twist over trivial personality issues. Ain't worth it, mate.

 

[Leviath]

You failed to provide any legitimate answers anyhow....just the same Duhbunker canned lines....

I don't see the problem here. You yourself linked to the moderated thread discussing Jones' latest paper. Even though Sunstealer suggests the "thermite" is kaolinite it's impossible to give an exact answer since none here have access to the chips.

Well, acttually dr Henry-Couannier did apparently get access and posted in the very same thread as henryco. His latest conclusion:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5013774&postcount=353

So I'd say your alternative E) is the one I'd vote for.

EDIT: I see Alienentity posted while I was typing so sorry for the apparent unnecessary link

 

[ImANiceGuy]

Carlitos, read through the last couple pages in this thread and you'll find my 9/11 event synopsis.

Trutherslie, I'm not as pathetic as Macky, I won't put you on ignore. However, you nonsensical ramblings are ineffective and frustrating. Macky insulted me several times by making absurd insinuations, and you deny this by calling me a child, despite the fact that I vigorously denied Thermite hypotheses.

You guys jumped all over me because you pre-determined that I was in favor of CD scenarios. How wrong some of you were(never to be admitted of course eh Macky?)

Edit: Alienentity, my questions followed the same linear form that a typical online 9/11 thermite debate would. I take exception to all the insults......why shouldn't I?

 

[carlitos]

Carlitos, read through the last couple pages in this thread and you'll find my synopsis.

I have done so. I have also done a search of your posts and I cannot find it, which is why I offered the link. If you would prefer to discuss what actually happened, it would seem to be more productive over there, where you won't have to slag through 13 pages of name-calling and such. If you already offered a synopsis of the day's events, why not just cut and paste it over on that topic, since it is probably off-topic in this one.

 

[ElMondoHummus]

Carlitos, read through the last couple pages in this thread and you'll find my 9/11 event synopsis.

Trutherslie, I'm not as pathetic as Macky, I won't put you on ignore. However, you nonsensical ramblings are ineffective and frustrating. Macky insulted me several times by making absurd insinuations, and you deny this by calling me a child, despite the fact that I vigorously denied Thermite hypotheses.

You guys jumped all over me because you pre-determined that I was in favor of CD scenarios. How wrong some of you were(never to be admitted of course eh Macky?)

Edit: Alienentity, my questions followed the same linear form that a typical online 9/11 thermite debate would. I take exception to all the insults......why shouldn't I?

Mister, nobody here gives a damn about whether you dislike anyone's prejudgement of you or not. If you feel you've been mistreated, go post a complaint over in forum management and quit wasting space in this thread whining about it. If you want to participate in this thread, start with points about the thread topic. Issues with other posters are the stuff of the Forum Management section, and are nothing but a waste of time here.

 

[BigAl]

PS. Come to think of it John DeMartini could have been a major thorn in the side of the perps. Lucky for them that he was killed in the WTC on 9/11 himself.(Though I can't imagine what he was doing there on that particular day so many years later)

That's sick, Bill.

He worked there. He would have saved your sorry a** if you had needed it on 9/11.


http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/29/nyregion/29WTC.html

 

[bill smith]

That's sick, Bill.

He worked there. He would have saved your sorry a** if you had needed it on 9/11.


http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/29/nyregion/29WTC.html

Hmmm. It still may have proved beneficial to the perps that he too died on 9/11. It sounds like he and Leslie robertson were not reading ffrom the same script. Neither was Skilling, Robertson's boss as lead structural engineer a number of years earlier.

 

[alienentity]

Carlitos, read through the last couple pages in this thread and you'll find my 9/11 event synopsis.

Trutherslie, I'm not as pathetic as Macky, I won't put you on ignore. However, you nonsensical ramblings are ineffective and frustrating. Macky insulted me several times by making absurd insinuations, and you deny this by calling me a child, despite the fact that I vigorously denied Thermite hypotheses.

You guys jumped all over me because you pre-determined that I was in favor of CD scenarios. How wrong some of you were(never to be admitted of course eh Macky?)

Edit: Alienentity, my questions followed the same linear form that a typical online 9/11 thermite debate would. I take exception to all the insults......why shouldn't I?

OK, I just had a quick review of your exchanges since 18 August, and I think I see where you started to get annoyed at Mackey. It was all about the choice E) that Mackey proposed. Pretty trivial stuff.

To be fair, you were trying to pick a fight for the longest time with Mackey, making various allegations, and he was being quite polite and in fact tried to de-escalate more than he was obliged to.

You may have forgotten that you were quite snarky and obnoxious. Remember posting this?
'well, it seems the duhbunkers can't get their stories straight either...

(fair moniker for any of you using the term Twoofer;basically the same person, just blind to opposing information)'

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=5020058#post5020058

And here's one of Mackey's replies later. btw, I can't find a post where he called you 'childish'. Sorry.

'Just in case you're unaware of this, posts like the above are poor form if you wish to be taken seriously.

There's no need for such theatrics. The nanothermites don't care. Back to topic, or are you finished?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=5041527#post5041527

He said what was on his mind. He offered lots of links, info and was willing to move on. But you were not.
That is why he put you on ignore.

After looking at the posts, I have no sympathy for you. You brought the bad karma on yourself. Let it go already, and move on.

Next.

 

[ElMondoHummus]

Wait... what? Somebody brought up De Martini? The same guy who died because after he helped people out, went up to the 78th floor to investigate the steel structure's soundness? The same De Martini who asked the police to allow engineers up to that floor so they can see the problems he was seeing? That De Martini?

How does anyone reconcile the claim that his statements validate the truther charges when his own actions demonstrates that he had concerns about the structure's integrity?

 

[bill smith]

Wait... what? Somebody brought up De Martini? The same guy who died because after he helped people out, went up to the 78th floor to investigate the steel structure's soundness? The same De Martini who asked the police to allow engineers up to that floor so they can see the problems he was seeing? That De Martini?

How does anyone reconcile the claim that his statements validate the truther charges when his own actions demonstrates that he had concerns about the structure's integrity?

Linky-poo ?

 

[carlitos]

Having clicked 'view post' just once in the past several days, I reiterate: bill smith is 4 drunk college kids with a blackberry, conducting an experiment in psychology. Please stop answering him, and he will go away.

 

[bill smith]

Linky-poo ?

PS. His office was on the 88th floor of the North Tower. Was he in the South Towr when he called the guys to the 78th floor where the impact had been ? Where the fireman said (on tape) ' a few isolated pockets of fire '...'We can knock them down with two lines '

 

[progge]

Are you sure Beachnut ?

John Skilling (biographical note)
John Skilling was the head structural engineer for the World Trade Center. In a 1993 interview, Skilling stated that the Towers were designed to withstand the impact and fires resulting from the collision of a large jetliner such as Boeing 707 or McDonald Douglas DC-8.


John Skilling said:
'' Our analysis indicated the biggest problem would be the fact that all the fuel (from the airplane) would dump into the building. There would be a horrendous fire. A lot of people would be killed, ... The building structure would still be there.''

John Skilling said.
'' The buildings have been investigated and found to be safe in an assumed collision with a large jet airliner (Boeing 707—DC 8) traveling at 600 miles per hour. Analysis indicates that such collision would result in only local damage which could not cause collapse or substantial damage to the building and would not endanger the lives and safety of occupants not in the immediate area of impact ''

You´re taken in by Hoffman here. Better read Hoffman´s source.

The last statement you cite is from the PANY document discussed by NIST here.

The Richard Roth Telegram, referencing the Skilling firm, is in fact just a reproduction of this PANY paper, no external confirmation, and was dictated by PANY project manager Malcolm P. Levy himself.

What the real estate people did not know was that Levy already had his script prepared. Nor could they have known how far the Port Authority was wiling to go to protect its project. [...] To anyone who had not seen Mal levy’s white paper and though through its implications, such an endorsement from Roth must have closed the case: the twin towers would be safe in the most extreme circumstances conceivable. But to anyone who had read the white paper, something else was clear: Roth had been given Myl Levy’s script to transmit as an urgent and authoritative telegram from an expert outside the Port Authority. Point by point, it was the same, almost word for world, as the white paper. Roth was simply parroting Levy, not offering an external judgement.

Source, p. 135 et seq.

Hmmm. It still may have proved beneficial to the perps that he too died on 9/11. It sounds like he and Leslie robertson were not reading ffrom the same script. Neither was Skilling, Robertson's boss as lead structural engineer a number of years earlier.

You´re comments on Robertson are disturbing. Robertsons statements are confirmed by people like PANY construction supervisor Guy F. Tozzoli.

Wir haben damals eine Studie gemacht und ausgerechnet, was passieren würde, wenn das größte Flugzeug, eine 707, einen Turm trifft. Wir sind davon ausgegangen, dass Flugzeuge über New York ihre Geschwindigkeit auf 200 Meilen pro Stunde drosseln müssen. Und dass sie auch nicht voll getankt sein würden, sondern sich im Landeanflug befänden.

Translation:

At that time [1964 or so] we did a study about what would happen if the biggest plane, a 707, would hit one tower. We assumed that planes across New York would have to reduce their speed to 200 mph. And that they wouldn´t be loaded with maximum fuel, but would approach for a landing.

Seems Tozzoli is familiar with the "Robertson script", eh?

 

[BigAl]

PS. His office was on the 88th floor of the North Tower. Was he in the South Towr when he called the guys to the 78th floor where the impact had been ? Where the fireman said (on tape) ' a few isolated pockets of fire '...'We can knock them down with two lines '

Mr. Bill is opaque to any substantive discussion. I assume he knows that.

Back on ignore for your.

 

[bill smith]

Having clicked 'view post' just once in the past several days, I reiterate: bill smith is 4 drunk college kids with a blackberry, conducting an experiment in psychology. Please stop answering him, and he will go away.

No I won't. I will talk to the readers. That's who I am adressing anyway.

 

[beachnut]

Having clicked 'view post' just once in the past several days, I reiterate: bill smith is 4 drunk college kids with a blackberry, conducting an experiment in psychology. Please stop answering him, and he will go away.

They don't understand 911 or thermite (the topic); doubt they can do a rational experiment in anything.