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Thermate

Where did I say that he possessed any steel? Read it again - I choose my words very carefully for a reason.

With regard to fly ash - what you've done is offer an alternative explanation. Unless you prove that the microspheres were definitely from fly ash, or somehow challenge Jones' analysis, they are both valid possibilities.

So just as I suspected, you guys haven't debunked anything. I hate to sound like a broken record, but a new investigation is probably what it will take to figure out which theory is correct.
No it's up to Jones to eliminate the most logical before going to the least. He ignores it instead. Great scientist you back.

As far as the steel goes he made a judgment on something he couldn't have analyzed? (don't say he did if he didn't have the sample)
 
No it's up to Jones to eliminate the most logical before going to the least. He ignores it instead. Great scientist you back.

As far as the steel goes he made a judgment on something he couldn't have analyzed? (don't say he did if he didn't have the sample)


"The most logical"? Sorry, but that's not how science works, because "the most logical" is a matter of perspective and opinion. The fact is, iron-rich microspheres are consistent with a therm*te reaction. As you pointed out, it doesn't prove that a therm*te reaction took place, but it remains a perfectly valid possibility.

With regard to the steel sample - I have no idea what you're talking about. Someone else analyzed the steel, and documented the fact that sulfur was present. Jones found that the presence of sulfur was also consistent with a therm*te reaction, and referenced the document to show that sulfur was present.

I never claimed that Jones had his own steel sample.
 
Jones had a sample of steel? I don't recall that. Link? The iron micro spheres are more consistent with fly ash in the concrete. A little thing Jones doesn't like to talk about.

Didn't Crazy Chainsaw note that the spheres were to be found in Laser Printer Toner as well?
 
Just to clarify my "that's not how science works" comment - if there was additional evidence to support the theory that the iron-rich microspheres came from fly ash, it would be an entirely different story. There isn't, and that's why the only logical choice is that they both remain possibilities.
 
"The most logical"? Sorry, but that's not how science works, because "the most logical" is a matter of perspective and opinion. The fact is, iron-rich microspheres are consistent with a therm*te reaction. As you pointed out, it doesn't prove that a therm*te reaction took place, but it remains a perfectly valid possibility.

With regard to the steel sample - I have no idea what you're talking about. Someone else analyzed the steel, and documented the fact that sulfur was present. Jones found that the presence of sulfur was also consistent with a therm*te reaction, and referenced the document to show that sulfur was present.

I never claimed that Jones had his own steel sample.
I have iron rich micro spheres in my shop (welders). They're extremely common.

Gypsum drywall (sulfur, one of the most common elements on earth). You should read the study that Jones ignores (the one that examine the steel) to come to his baseless conclusion. He no longer promotes this in his talks you know. Maybe you should ask him why.:)
 
Didn't Crazy Chainsaw note that the spheres were to be found in Laser Printer Toner as well?
They're very common. Incinerate trash (anything organic) and you get iron micro spheres. Why do you think Jones won't release his samples for independent analysis? (He said he did and has never shown the results)
 
Just to clarify my "that's not how science works" comment - if there was additional evidence to support the theory that the iron-rich microspheres came from fly ash, it would be an entirely different story. There isn't, and that's why the only logical choice is that they both remain possibilities.
another possiblity is that they came from UFOs, as iron microspheres are also commonly found in crop circle sites

after all, its only logical to look at all possibilities
 
Deep, in all due respect, split hairs far too finely. When you phrase your sentence "Dr. Steven Jones found that a sample of structural steel from WTC7 had had certain characteristics...", you end up implying that Jones inspected the steel member directly, or inspected a component that was directly tied to components from the WTC. That's the logical conclusion to draw from the way you constructed your sentence, all protestations to the contrary nonwithstanding. If you recall his paper, no such linkage is established; the dust sample was merely presumed to be from the towers collapse. Due to the location of it's collection, it's an assumption of reasonably high probability, but it's still only an assumption. Your phraseology shouldn't have implied that the dust was directly tied to the steel when that's not established.

On top of that, Jones asserts that his findings indicate reactions at rather high temperatures that would presumably not be found in such a fire as was experienced on 9/11. As Ryan Mackey has noted, that's not a given; iron microsphere creation can be catalyzed at lower temperatures than what he postulates.

Now, regarding fly ash: It is a far more probable hypothesis because it's genesis is known to have been involved in the constuction of the towers; such ash is a component of concrete manufacture. Whereas alternate hypotheses positing that the microshperes were caused by agents such as thermite lack supporting evidence, such as characteristic effects left on the steel members, lack of observed phenomena that can be attributed to thermite, lack of certain other elements being present (such as barium, if you're talking thermate) ascribed to thermite, etc. On the other hand, alternative hypotheses that are consistent with the known history of the towers - welding events, for example (I'm not satisfied with Jones's handwave dismissing welding, but I'm willing to accept that his criticisms of it may have a modicum of validity) are a far more reasonable source, because no deus-ex-machina explanation is required for them to be true. The point here is that it is reasonable to dismiss or assign a lower probability to fantastic explanations when such explanations require far more conditions, and far more unusual ones at that. That's how Occam's Razor works.

And regarding sulfur: Given the number of years the towers were standing and exposed to diesel fumes from vehicles, I'd be far more surprised if he didn't find any sulfur. I know this is after the fact, but sulfur emissions are enough of a concern at Ground Zero that there's an initiative to reduce them (http://www.cleanaircommunities.org/projects/wtc.html). Consider how much more exposure the towers had during the decades they were standing, and in times when such environmental concerns were merely beginning to develop. Add that source to the known contents - drywall, computer monitors (tube ones, not LCD flatpanels), etc. - and it's a wonder why the presence of sulfur is considered indicative of therm*te. Alternate sources are not only known, but are in abundance.
 
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Just to clarify my "that's not how science works" comment - if there was additional evidence to support the theory that the iron-rich microspheres came from fly ash, it would be an entirely different story. There isn't, and that's why the only logical choice is that they both remain possibilities.
There is actually (another thing Jones never talks about). If his percentages* of spheres in dust is right he would need tons of thermite per floor. Do you think that's logical?

*In some of his samples*
 
I have iron rich micro spheres in my shop (welders). They're extremely common.

Gypsum drywall (sulfur, one of the most common elements on earth). You should read the study that Jones ignores (the one that examine the steel) to come to his baseless conclusion. He no longer promotes this in his talks you know. Maybe you should ask him why.:)


Wow, you have them in your shop? That's fantastic. It doesn't change the fact that they are consistent with a therm*te reaction.

Regarding sulfur - I would imagine that he doesn't promote it in his talks for the very reason you mentioned - it's not very strong evidence. Again, regardless of how strong it is, it's still consistent with a therm*te reaction. If there wasn't any sulfer, therm*te could likely be ruled out (although I'm not certain of that).
 
There is actually (another thing Jones never talks about). If his percentages* of spheres in dust is right he would need tons of thermite per floor. Do you think that's logical?

*In some of his samples*


Very interesting indeed. Where is the research to support that claim?
 
There is actually (another thing Jones never talks about). If his percentages* of spheres in dust is right he would need tons of thermite per floor. Do you think that's logical?

*In some of his samples*

How much building content fire does your theory need per floor?
 
TruthByDecree, speculate as to how thermate would be used to demolish the towers. How would it be done, in other words?
 

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