"There has never been a war between two genuine democracies."

I still fundamentally disagree that the people running a system involving systematic torture and murder, abolition of political activity and suspension of all elected bodies and elections considered what they were doing democratic, but I can understand where you are coming from.

I still think that you're putting too much into the word "democracy."

You're right -- suspension of all elected bodies and elections would be enough to make a political system nondemocratic, by definition. But systematic torture? Nothing about systematic torture is actually incompatible with a democratic political system, if enough of the electorate is willing to vote in its favor.

That's one of the things that has been brought up time and time again -- since Plato -- among opponents of democracy; the people can often be persuaded to vote in support of distasteful or outright immoral actions (hence Plato's preference for enlightened philosopher-kings, who could be counted on to rule according to moral principles). That's why the founders of the United States created a constitutional republic instead of a direct democracy, and why they explicitly provided several counterbalances to public opinion.
 
You, before: It is a very different answer from the "if they claimed to be democratic, I believe they considered themselves democratic unless provided with documentary evidence to the contrary" which seemed to be your previous answer.
I denied that was my statement
You, now: Then it can't have been you who posted this:

"I would base a statement about what he "considered himself to be" based on what he claimed, yes."

You should report to the admin that someone has cracked your account and is posting things you don't belief under your name.[/QUOTE]

Except of course that your paraphrasing of me is not an accurate rephrasing of what you quoted. I said I would "base" an opinion of what someone believed on what they said they believed. I did not say that would be the exclusive basis of such belief or even that only documentary evidence would be acceptable in all cases. In the case of the Argentinian junta, rhat would be the only evidence of which I would be aware since evidence of their behavior is consistent with their statements.

You're the one who likes to jump to conclusion and then suffer rhetorical whiplash when you realize nobody jumped with you.
 
You, before: It is a very different answer from the "if they claimed to be democratic, I believe they considered themselves democratic unless provided with documentary evidence to the contrary" which seemed to be your previous answer.
I denied that was my statement
You, now: Then it can't have been you who posted this:

"I would base a statement about what he "considered himself to be" based on what he claimed, yes."

You should report to the admin that someone has cracked your account and is posting things you don't belief under your name

Except of course that your paraphrasing of me is not an accurate rephrasing of what you quoted. I said I would "base" an opinion of what someone believed on what they said they believed. I did not say that would be the exclusive basis of such belief or even that only documentary evidence would be acceptable in all cases. In the case of the Argentinian junta, rhat would be the only evidence of which I would be aware since evidence of their behavior is consistent with their statements.

You're the one who likes to jump to conclusion and then suffer rhetorical whiplash when you realize nobody jumped with you.

You think the evidence of the behaviour of the Argentinian junta is consistent with a belief they are running a democracy?

Like suspending political parties, abolishing elected bodies, murdering political opponents and cancelling elections.

Sure.

So I ask again - what behaviour from them would you consider evidence they did not consider they were running a democracy. I find it hard to think of any antidemocratic behaviour they did NOT undertake.
 
You think the evidence of the behaviour of the Argentinian junta is consistent with a belief they are running a democracy?
As stated several times before. I think the evidence of their behavior is not inconsistent with their stated goal of the road from Peronism to democracy.

I do think it is actually inconsistent with democracy, which I have stated repeatedly in this thread, but which you don't seem to grasp.

I would require behavior that was inconsitent with their notion of a "road to democracy" (which is obviously different from yours or my notion of actual democracy).

For example, a return to Peronism would suffice as that would have been expressly a step backwards along their so-called road.

I explained at length what the political theory at the time was. You thanked me for explaining it to you. But now you don't seem to have understood it at all. Did you read it before you thanked me?
 
As stated several times before. I think the evidence of their behavior is not inconsistent with their stated goal of the road from Peronism to democracy.

I do think it is actually inconsistent with democracy, which I have stated repeatedly in this thread, but which you don't seem to grasp.

I would require behavior that was inconsitent with their notion of a "road to democracy" (which is obviously different from yours or my notion of actual democracy).

For example, a return to Peronism would suffice as that would have been expressly a step backwards along their so-called road.

I explained at length what the political theory at the time was. You thanked me for explaining it to you. But now you don't seem to have understood it at all. Did you read it before you thanked me?

I understand it perfectly. I just disagree with your interpretation that when they were running a system that banned political parties, abolished civil rights and cancelled elections that they considered themselves to be, at that time, a democracy. They may have thought they were doing something that was necessary to reestablish a democracy at a later stage, as claimed in the various quotes you posted. I simply disagree with your interpretation that at the time of the war they considered they were CURRENTLY a democracy as I do not think that is consistent with the evidence. I think there is a difference between believing you are on a road to democracy and believing you ARE a democracy. For example in invading Iraq I have little doubt the US and UK governments genuinely believed they were on the road to establishing a democracy in Iraq. That does not mean that Iraq became a democracy as soon as they invaded. The intention to become democratic is, IMO, not the same as being a democracy.

I understand that you don't consider it a democracy - where you get the idea that I have an issue with this I have no idea.
 
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I just disagree with your interpretation that when they were running a system that banned political parties, abolished civil rights and cancelled elections that they considered themselves to be, at that time, a democracy.
You're right. We disagree. I don't get why you think asking me the same question again and again is going to change my answer.

For example in invading Iraq I have little doubt the US and UK governments genuinely believed they were on the road to establishing a democracy in Iraq. That does not mean that Iraq became a democracy as soon as they invaded. The intention to become democratic is, IMO, not the same as being a democracy.

Unlike the modern-day US and UK governments (or for that matter the US and UK at any point in history), the Argentinian junta was espousing a political theory that was popular in Latin America that some dictatorship was necessary to transition nations from the neo-fascism of the 1950's and 1960's towards democracy. The theory was a hodgepodge of Marxism, cultural relativism and socialism.

I understand that you don't consider it a democracy - where you get the idea that I have an issue with this I have no idea.

When you wrote "You think the evidence of the behaviour of the Argentinian junta is consistent with a belief they are running a democracy?" I thought that by "a belief" you were referring to "my belief they were running a democracy" (which I don't ascribe to) when you were apparently referring to "the junta's belief they were running a democracy" (which I do). It was a vague sentence and I jumped to the wrong conclusion. I am sorry.
 
Yes, because they didn't see democracy as black or white. They considered democracy to be a spectrum between Peronism and full democracy. So they considered anything in between to be partial democracy, which as you can see has the word "democracy" in it.

Dictatorships in Latin America came in many flavors, but generally speaking, you're right.

They did not consider themselves to be "full democracy", but as they did not consider themselves to be Peronism, they saw themselves as partly democratic.
I know that makes no sense to you, but that was the fashionable political theory in Latin America floating around at the time.

In Chile and Brazil the authoritarian regimes were voted out, for example.

There were two different perceptions:

The military juntas knew those were not democracies, but in some cases - Brazil, Uruguay, Paraguay - they only ceased power because of their deep-seated fear of communism. Some of those truly believed that the only way to avoid the Russian and Cuban influence would be by creating strong executives, because a lenient government would not be enough.

There are many episodes where the military acted as a moderating power, that is, rising to power to normalize a chaotic political situation, call elections and step down. In many cases this was quite a positive development because the military forces were the only nation-wide force, particularly true in poor countries with isolated and impoverished areas, where no other political power could rise.

In the 60s and 70s, however, those who rose to power had access to the media, now widespread in those regions, so they could develop personality cults and propaganda. More importantly, there was Cuba in the backyard and the United States giving full support to military governments that would act as a police against communism. So they remained in power like never before.

The population also knew this was not a democracy, but they did not have access, at the time, to the full information regarding the excesses of the regime. More importantly, their support was bought with the fear factor - communists -, unprecedented economic development (GDP increased in average 10% a year in Brazil) or the existence of an enemy, like Argentina/Chile. So the dictatorship had positive support of many social classes.

The population bought some of the justifications for the dictatorships.

Elections? They could exist. But what for? The leftists would only bring chaos and start riots. Sometimes the most responsible thing is to act with prudence. Or they existed, but if a man is sent to Congress and he's a communist, the only decent thing to do is to expel him.

Torture? No evidence. Those who say they were tortured are being paid by Moscow to make the regime look bad.

Disappeared? No corpse, no evidence. Those leftists were joining guerillas, that's why they disappeared without a trace. Outrageous to suggest that the protectors of peace were killing people.

Censorship? We can't give voice to communists. Only people with loose morals, willing to cause confusion, would want to make absurd accusations against the junta.

There were rumors. But many chose not to believe it. The opposition could not raise a voice, and when it did, it was the distorted scream of radicals, who carried out bank robberies and kidnapping to advance their cause.

You and I may believe that one is either a democracy or not a democracy and there is no middle ground. But at the time, the idea was that there was a long road to democracy, particularly for Latin American countries who had known little but colonialism, neo-colonialism, socialism or a succession of dictatorships in which the democratic process was invariably swept away.

More importantly, what good did democracy do? To many people that was a legitimate question. Some countries alternated democratic periods with authoritarian ones, and they could not see much of a difference. Why not? Because in the absence of an educated middle-class, rare indeed in those impoverished countries, the vast majority were followers and voted in whoever they were told to. And nothing changed. So, considering the incredibly low educational level of voters, it did not make much of a difference whether they were living in a democracy or not. For the average worker, it did not interfere with his daily life.

The fact that they had many very very anti-democratic measures, such as restrictions on free speech, peacable assembly and other rights we associate with liberal democracy does not contradict their theory as they claimed to be on the beginning of a long road to "full democracy" and those rights would be introduced later.

Exactly. In the presence of fear, some civil rights could be left for later, for society's best interest. Well, tell that to a mother whose son was tortured for months and then thrown by helicopter into the river.

As I said, I think the theory was bunk (just as I think the theory of communism is bunk). But I also think that many who espoused it honestly believed (or hoped) it to be true.

In Brazil, this was certainly the case. From Day One the generals knew they would have to give up power, but that should only happen when Brazil was safe. They believed that so strongly that they elected between themselves presidents who would not want to perpetuate themselves in power. That was their major preoccupation at that time, and they succeeded in keeping the rotation of military presidents. In the 70s they allowed an opposition party, as long as it was moderate. They were pressured by public opinion to step down as soon as the "economic miracle" wore out (early eighties), earlier than what they expected, but there is now plenty of evidence that they saw their role as that of protectors. The military presidents died poor men, which is quite unusual when you think of dictatorships. As I said, they come in different flavors.

"I'll arrest and destroy those who oppose it"
President Figueiredo, explaining how he was going to lead the redemocratization process.

Precious. :D
 
When you wrote "You think the evidence of the behaviour of the Argentinian junta is consistent with a belief they are running a democracy?" I thought that by "a belief" you were referring to "my belief they were running a democracy" (which I don't ascribe to) when you were apparently referring to "the junta's belief they were running a democracy" (which I do). It was a vague sentence and I jumped to the wrong conclusion. I am sorry.

As I often say to my girlfriend, if I say something that you can take two ways and one of them makes you mad, then I meant the other one.

No problem.
 
Thank you Luciana Nery, for your contribution. That definitley comports with my memores of the region at the time.

Thank you Jaggy Burnett for your magnaminity in our misunderstanding.
 

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