Therapeutic Touch ~ evidence for effectiveness?

[Marc]

Re: Kirlian Field photography

In this segment, and small leaf was photographed and it produced an expected image. Then the leaf was cut in half and photographed again. The surprize came when the new image was shown to display the original "Full" leaf shape that slowly dissolved to the present half shape.

The explination for that is for the photograph the leaf is pressed between glass plates. After it is cut in half they use the same plates, so the moisture and contaminants from the pressed leaf are still on the glass. I would guess as the moisture dries up and becomes less conductive the electrical field would become more limited to the remaining portion of the leaf.

 

[BNiles]

That certainly passes the razor test.
Thanks

 

[Psiload]

Re: Kirlian Field photography

I've seen a few shows that breifly talked about Kirlian Field photography; and though I know about how voltage is applied to the subject to produce these images, I found one segment of interest.

In this segment, and small leaf was photographed and it produced an expected image. Then the leaf was cut in half and photographed again. The surprize came when the new image was shown to display the original "Full" leaf shape that slowly dissolved to the present half shape.

It was argued that the leaf's "biofield" was still displaying it's full form, but couldn't maintain it for long periods. Do I believe this? Well, I'm a skeptic first and foremost. This means that a 3 and a half minute clip on a science show does not research make. I would need to see more, and have these test peer reviewed by people far more qualified than me.

Still, it was pretty eye catching.

Here's something the "Kirlian photographers" won't tell you...

They can get a dampened plastic sponge to produce the "biofield" aura.

...sniff test...

 

[dmarker]

OK, what's a cure?
Insulin doesn't cure diabetes, it controls it enough that most diabetics can survive longer.
Years ago I helped a friend move his stock out his record store. Vinyl LPs packed into plastic milk crates weigh quite a bit and I didn't know to use my knees when lifting. I pulled a
back muscle. A friend was studying therapeutic massage and relieved the pain temporarily. But she also said, "If the pain comes back and you can't get a massage, try heat, hot water, like that."
So I bought a Showerpik shower head that pulses hot water and can be fine tuned. It relieves pain. Trust me.
I can't wait untilI try out our new Jacuzzi(tm).

A cure is the cessation of the disease. Diabetes, high blood pressure, and schitzophrenia are not cured they are controlled.

 

[athon]

Re: Re: Kirlian Field photography

Here's something the "Kirlian photographers" won't tell you...

They can get a dampened plastic sponge to produce the "biofield" aura.

...sniff test...

I've always wondered, in today's modern age, why isn't Kirlian photography easily reproduced in today's photo labs? Given how long ago it all was (and the fact that so many still give it cred') why isn't there a course in Kirlian photography?

Athon

 

[Dragon]

Steve,

Any luck with a decent pro-TT study?
I realise that it might be difficult, if not impossible, to find a "gold standard" study. (i.e. double-blind, placebo controlled and peer-reviwed) but if there is any study you feel is worthy of discussion then lets see it.

 

[BillHoyt]

Re: Re: Re: Kirlian Field photography

I've always wondered, in today's modern age, why isn't Kirlian photography easily reproduced in today's photo labs? Given how long ago it all was (and the fact that so many still give it cred') why isn't there a course in Kirlian photography?

Athon

Suppression of the truth by the skeptico-balding-fatso-western-european-white-male-hetero-scientistic establishment.

Cheers,

 

[Jeff Corey]

Steve,
Any luck with a decent pro-TT study?
I realise that it might be difficult, if not impossible, to find a "gold standard" study. (i.e. double-blind, placebo controlled and peer-reviwed) but if there is any study you feel is worthy of discussion then lets see it.

My guess is he won't. TT people don't do experiments, they do testimonials and anecdotes.
And they are mainly nurses and some social workers, who don't get a whole lot of training in designing experiments.

 

[athon]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Kirlian Field photography

Suppression of the truth by the skeptico-balding-fatso-western-european-white-male-hetero-scientistic establishment.

Cheers,

Oh. I think I'm a card-carrying member of that (at least I would be if I was fat).

Athon

 

[Dragon]

...

TT people don't do experiments, they do testimonials and anecdotes.
And they are mainly nurses and some social workers, who don't get a whole lot of training in designing experiments.

I think you're right, and I'm not expecting him to find a really good study because I doubt there is one. I'll settle for the best he's got.

 

[Dragon]

Steve,

On 5th October, this thread, you said -

Give me a week and I will select out of the 454 citations both pro and con studies to back up the fact that TT, true TT therapeutic + touch, is still not a complete fraud.

If you've got something, let's see it.

 

[Jeff Corey]

There are 50K nurses in a health care environment doing this in the US alone. I guess that really annoys Linda Rosa. And nobody has died from it.

He also posted this on the same day. I was horrified to hear that we have that many gullible, untrained nurses in this country.
I could imagine a plausible scenario where a person could die from malpractice if they avoided conventional medicine in favor of this quackery.

 

[CFLarsen]

He also posted this on the same day. I was horrified to hear that we have that many gullible, untrained nurses in this country.
I could imagine a plausible scenario where a person could die from malpractice if they avoided conventional medicine in favor of this quackery.

Calm down. This is, after all, Steve Grenard we are talking about here.

His data are usually quite suspect (if they exist at all).

But asking for him to back it up will only result in a suggestion to do your own search on Google....

 

[Ed]

Calm down. This is, after all, Steve Grenard we are talking about here.

His data are usually quite suspect (if they exist at all).

But asking for him to back it up will only result in a suggestion to do your own search on Google....

Or a google search

 

[AlienX]

I have a quick question for the original poster:-

How many of your current "standard" medical treatments have no data to back up their effectiveness (in that I mean they do more benifit than harm).

I would assume it's a big fat zero - so why on earth would you even consider breaking this rule. Surely if you start breaking the rules for "alternative" treatments then what's to stop this expanding to the others.

AX

 

[TruthSeeker]

I have a quick question for the original poster:-

How many of your current "standard" medical treatments have no data to back up their effectiveness (in that I mean they do more benifit than harm).

I would assume it's a big fat zero - so why on earth would you even consider breaking this rule. Surely if you start breaking the rules for "alternative" treatments then what's to stop this expanding to the others.

AX

Hi Alien

Actually, with the current emphasis on evidence-based medicine, it is becoming more and more rare to find treatments without documented effectiveness.

Just yesterday I was at a research development meeting where the discussion focussed on a proposal to investigate when a physician would be willing to try a treatment that they thought might not work but would not cause harm. Just from our clinical experience (And we will be conducting a survey to find out if this is true) the consensus seems to be the worse the prognosis, the more likely to try something different, just in case it helps. But that raises all sorts of ethical issues around patient burden and quality of life. Anyway, it was a fascinating discussion.

Not surprisingly, the person who claimed there was evidence for the effectivness of therapeutic touch never produced the citation.

 

[Dragon]

... snip...

Not surprisingly, the person who claimed there was evidence for the effectivness of therapeutic touch never produced the citation.

Don't worry, I'm sure Steve Grenard will come up with something soon.

 

[aries]

therapeutic touch

Hello

I must say i'm a bit confused...

As far ias i can understand TT is what is called 'healing' in Denmark (where i live) where a healer (of any sort) places his or her hands hovering over differents parts of the subject-patients body.

The theory is (as far as i understand) that all body's emanate what is called 'aura' --- and is in this 'aura' the healer (Or TT person that performs the TT) shufle's the subject- patients 'energisystem' around.

And the theory further should state that a result of this shuffling energy around the subject person is that the subect-person should be 'healed' of any ailment (or what) or bad or poor condition that the subject-person/patient have..

Hopefully, i have given an accurate account og what TT people say is happening...(but I think it is the same as 'healers' say the do in Denmark.)

Then let me comment on the 9 year old Emily Rosa's experiment.

First of all:

I'm also very confused...
(the design of the study was to see of the TT nurses could sense 'aura'.) First you have to define 'sense':what is this --- should they bee able to feel it, see it or whatever. Thenn you have to define aura.) This clearly a methodological question.

Another quesion to be raised:
Did all the nurses that she (Em. R) used claim to TT nurses...
and did they all claim that they could see/sense 'aura'.

Also:
I'm also very confused...

as i have read this thread i'm becoming more and more confused... --- true, but sad...

As I understand the initial question come from emily when she was driving in a car with her mom(mother). They apparantly heard a radio show/news cast where some TT nurses told that they could 'heal' (or make bittle a little bit better ???) people for various diseases (and so on).

Then she asked her mommy: well can they ? And her Mom answered: well, why don't you find out for yourself.

And then Emily made her 'research' which as far, as I can se, have nothing to do with her INITIAL question; that nurses that perform TT can heal people (if i remember correctly) --- which was, in all fairness, what Emily's report should have been about.

Not if TT nurses can or cannot see/sense/detect auras..

I apologize if this is not the case and the initial question was another...but as i said i'm really very confused (insert;
:rolling eyes smiley: here)

Not having read her(er) report i would say that this report seems to me to be flawed in its methodology...with no clear understanding on how to formulate a problem, make an hypothesis and so on,

as the report (by ER) seems apparantley to deal with a different type of question than the one she first put forth to her mother while driving in a car with her...(sorry for the english --- hope you still understand )

aries

 

[BillHoyt]

Re: therapeutic touch

Not having read her(er) report i would say that this report seems to me to be flawed in its methodology...with no clear understanding on how to formulate a problem, make an hypothesis and so on,

as the report (by ER) seems apparantley to deal with a different type of question than the one she first put forth to her mother while driving in a car with her...(sorry for the english --- hope you still understand )

aries

And what on earth is wrong with cutting through a hierarchical claim down to the underlying claim? Emily tested the underlying claim and toppled the TT house of cards; they can't manipulate it if they can't feel it. It is dirt simple and d*** good science.

 

[aries]

therapeutic touch and Emily Rosa

Hi

There's is absolutely nothing wrong with testing an underlying claim if you know that you are doing it. And that you are honest about it. And in your methodology clearly states that this is what you are doing...

However, I have seen nothing of the sort here..(from the information i have been reading/getting from reading this thread/subject anyway)

If they can't feel it --- then they can't manipulate it...

Hmm --- interesting notion...ER tested if the TT nurses could
feel/sense the 'aura'. (and she got, as far I have understood reading this post an 50/50 outcome)

Also, the pain study, using TT, conducted by a hospital, fails to mention that pain and experience of pain is very subjective...
(some people will subjectively feel that cold water really is lukewarm i.e. a person who washed dished all day long)

Also, also the same study actually mentions that TT may
be used to downsize the agnelstic (or so??) drugs that is used after surgery/operation ??? I think....

(and if this is the case, i think ev'rybody should be very happy, because all that can downzise the druguse in our hospitals should be encouraged --- at least in Denmark is the expences/cost for the drugs used in hospitals exploding...)

So any thing that could downsize this --- would, at least to me, be very valuable...

aries