Theory of Special Relativity is wrong

Zep what an incredibly stupid question. Velocity is relative. Only special relativity disputes this. You really have the wrong end of the stick here. Special relativity is a doctrine of velocity-absolutism.
I'll ignore the insults for now. And I haven't mentioned special or any other colour relativity yet. Please answer the question as put. It's in plain English, no "cliches", and is simple enough for a child to understand. So we'll move on from kindergarten as soon as you answer.
 
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No where does special relativity say that velocity is absolute, or that the speed of light is infinate. It says that C is a constant regardless of the frame of reference of the observer.

If you can't understand the difference, you have no business being so aggressive in your presentation of your flawed premise.
 
Quit your appallingly aggressive behavior and comprehend this: Its YOU that doesn't understand the difference and are working on false premises and I can prove it:

It says that C is a constant regardless of the frame of reference of the observer.

Thats an aspect of velocity absolutism right there. And it stands in TOTAL CONTRADICTION to the idea that velocity is relative. The two concepts are entirely incompatible. This is where the inertial frames scam comes in. Once you have contradicted the concept of relative velocity you have to chop reality into bits and pieces to make that JIVE fly.
 
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How you use it? Right. Thats science right there.... (not). Try and get your wording as clear as possible and this will hopefully allow you to become less confused. The fault is all your own.

I am sorry, but thou art in error.

C is a constant. Like g, it's value never changes. That is how we define the word constant.

So I'm going to bow out because I am not arguing with someone who cannot understand constants.
 
SR doesn't show, for example, that clocks in motion measure different time from clocks at rest. It shows that they measure difference time and that the difference agrees with the quantitative predictions of SR.

Also, a theory is good if it agrees with experiment up to the available precision and since zero mass for a photon satisfies this condition and has done so for almost 100 years or so, you will have to deal with it GMB.

http://www.physorg.com/news9248.html (one more succesful test of SR)

*Relativity in the Global Positioning System

The appeal to "frame of reference" is a perpetual series of spoon-bender distractions. There is only one relevant "frame of reference" and that frame of reference is REALITY.

Well you see for example Einstein's relativity postulate, necessity of differentiating between the concepts is given, as the formentioned refers to uniform rectilinear motion and not circular motion, so frames of reference in arbitrary motion are not inertial frames.

What is the experimental basis of Special Relativity?
Excerpt thereof:
""Physics is an experimental science, and as such the experimental basis for any physical theory is extremely important. The relationship between theory and experiments in modern science is a multi-edged sword:
It is required that the theory not be refuted by any undisputed experiment within the theory's domain of applicability.
It is expected that the theory be confirmed by a number of experiments that:
- cover a significant fraction of the theory's domain of applicability.
- examine a significant fraction of the theory's predictions."
...

That being said, as of this writing there are no reproducible and generally-accepted experiments that are inconsistent with SR, within its domain of applicability."

Your link is not in favour of special relativity. Your link is sticking up for an augmented Lorentz relativity. I've got no cause to be suspicious of this Lorentz relativity. There is nothing voodoo about it that I can see. It ought to be the default position at the moment until the whole deal can be reworked. It ought to have precedence over special relativity from first principles.

Most of the mathematical tools used in Special Relativity was, yes, created by Lorentz, Hertz, Maxwell, Poincaré etc. This is however not equivalent with having reached the breakthrough of revealing a testable, workable formulation of Special Relativity under the umbrella of a theory.
Poincaré for example, he acknowledged the Lorentz aether which assumes the existence of a privileged aether frame. He expressed his agreement with Lorentz in the following terms:
"the results I have obtained agree with those of Mr. Lorentz in all important
points. I was led to modify and complete them in a few points of
detail"

This agreement implies that the speed of light is isotropic exclusively in the privileged frame, as is easily deduced from Lorentz theory (for that, see his explanation of Michelson's experiment where the speed of light is c+v or c-v in the two opposite directions)

Einstein considered that the relativity principle was not compatible with a preferred frame. Einstein first considered this aether; the privileged frame matter, as superfluous. He did never acknowledge the existence of a preferred frame, so his theory was compatible with the relativity principle. So, Lorentz and Poincare developed most of the math used, but never fully embraced the principles behind it.

Stephen Hawking in "A Brief History of Time: From the Big Bang to Black Holes" writes;
Between 1887 and 1905 there were several attempts, most notably by the Dutch physicist Hendrik Lorentz, to explain the result of the Michelson-Morley experiment in terms of objects contracting and clocks slowing down when they moved through the ether. However, in a famous paper in 1905, a hitherto unknown clerk in the Swiss patent office, Albert Einstein, pointed out that the whole idea of an ether was unnecessary, providing one was willing to abandon the idea of absolute time. A similar point was made a few weeks later by a leading French mathematician, Henri Poincare. Einstein's argument were closer to physics than those of Poincare, who regarded this problem as mathematical. Einstein is usually given credit for the new theory, but Poincare is remembered by having his name attached to an important part of it." (pp. 22-23)

Ergo, before SR, there was something called Fitzgerald-Lorentz contraction. To understand this, one must know how a Michelson interferometer works.
If there were an ether, the green path would be parallel to Earth's velocity through the ether, also the blue path would be purpendicular.
What MM (Michelson-Morley) observed was that the length of the two paths was different (even though the arrangement was perfectly symmetric, to check this it suffices to rotate the apparatus 90º and measure again).
Fitzgerald-Lorentz explained that the green path was contracted due to its movement though the ether. The ratio of lengths was;
latex.php

The explanation, if I understood it correctly, is that the FL (Fitzgerald-Lorentz) contraction is absolute, while Special Relativity predicts a relative contraction.

In other words, in the FL explanation there is an ether, there is a concept of absolute motion and an observer at rest with respect to the ether measures objects in movement as contracted.
However In Special Relativity, there is no absolute concept of rest, hence an outside observer would measure a moving train as contracted, yet another observer on the train would also see the first one on the station contracted.
This is one important difference between the FL contraction and SR. Empirically, Special Relativity wins hands down.

Another huge difference is that the FL contraction is a bit of an ad hoc explanation if you will, with no basis. Simply, I think it is correct to say that it's is just an artificial way of preserving the concept of an "ether". Special Relativity though, is derived from two physical postulates with a simple meaning and it is real science, ie falsifiable with experiment.
 
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Well you are talking the talk white lion so lets have that evidence for the main voodoo propositions of special relativity.

Anything that special relativity predicts can be predicted with other models not given over to such voodoo and arbitrary assumptions. Therefore Occams razor prevails.
 
No its you that are wrong. Yes its true that general relativity is built on special relativity. But I didn't mention general relativity once. So it was you that was wrong. Your reading comprehension was a complete failure. And everything I said that you quoted stands. Lorentz relativity doesn't contain the voodoo of the Einstein version. Thats what I said. How handicapped do you people have to be to respond to something entirely different to what I said.

Go back and read. Do better next time.
My advice to you is the same. Go back and read. Do better next time. skbuncks posted a link about how GPS systems must take relativistic effects into account. You dismissed it with the motivation that it wasn't about special relativity, and said that you have no cause to be suspicious about the kind of relativity that the article is talking about. That article is about both special and general relativity.
 
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"Einstein considered that the relativity principle was not compatible with a preferred frame. "

You are stooging yourself by your unwillingness to speak in plain English. The principle of relativity is consistent with an integrated holistic reality. It is incompatible with a theory of velocity absolutism.
 
It seems that the clocks showing different time passing (presumably the example was a spaceship and earth system) example has been put to GMB.

I am unclear - what was his explanation for two clocks travelling at relatively very different speeds showing different time having elapsed?
 
Speak English. I know what you mean but you are not saying what you mean.

Then why didn't you read the sentence immediately following the one you quoted, where I said precisely what that means in non-technical terms?

You're an ignorant fool, but I'll continue this for entertainment purposes for the moment.

sol invictus said:
GMB, do you agree that the laws of physics are the same in all inertial reference frames? In other words, do you agree that inside a sealed laboratory in interstellar space, there is no experiment one can do to determine at which velocity the laboratory is moving?

It's a yes or no question. So for the second time: yes or no?
 
Anything that special relativity predicts can be predicted with other models not given over to such voodoo and arbitrary assumptions. Therefore Occams razor prevails.

Excellent. Great. Put your money where your mouth is and provide a model that can account for all of SRs observations better than it can. That means a) demonstrating observations that SR cannot account for, and b) that this other theory can account for them.

I trust you'll have links to references for these models swiftly and put me in my place.

Athon
 
Well you are talking the talk white lion so lets have that evidence for the main voodoo propositions of special relativity.

Are you serious, I just gave you the evidence, ie the experimental confirmations of it. Since you didn't check, here are some of them:

http://www.physorg.com/news9248.html (a succesful test)

  • The Michelson and Gale Experiment (Nature 115 (1925), pg 566; Astrophys. J. 61 (1925), pg 137.)
  • g−2 Experiments as a Test of Special Relativity: Newman et al., Phys. Rev. Lett. 40 no. 21 (1978), pg 1355. P.S. Cooper et al., Physical Review Letters 42 (1979), pg 1386. Farley et al., Nuovo Cimento Vol 45, pg 281 (1966). Bailey et al., Nuovo Cimento 9A, pg 369 (1972). Bailey et al., Phys. Lett. 68B no. 2 (1977), pg 191.
  • The Brookhaven experiment to measure g−2 for muons, http://www.g-2.bnl.gov/
  • The Fizeau Experiment: Bilger et al., Phys. Rev. A5 (1972) pg 591. James and Sternberg, Nature 197 (1963), pg 1192.
  • Particle-Based Experiments: Nguyen, H.H., “CPT results from KTeV”, (2001). arXiv:hep-ex/0112046. Schwingenheuer, B. et al., “CPT tests in the neutral kaon system”, Phys. Rev. Lett., 74, pg 4376–4379, (1995). Carey, R.M. et al., “New Measurement of the Anomalous Magnetic Moment of the Positive Muon”, Phys. Rev. Lett., 82, pg 1632–1635, (1999). (Reinhardt's Ph.D. thesis, 2005) http://archiv.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/...xte/2005/5934/pdf/doktorarbeit_sreinhardt.pdf
  • Calorimetric Test of Special Relativity: .R. Walz, H.P. Noyes and R.L. Carezani, Physical Review A29 (1984), pg 2110.
  • Twin Paradox: C. Alley, “Proper Time Experiments in Gravitational Fields with Atomic Clocks, Aircraft, and Laser Light Pulses,” in Quantum Optics, Experimental Gravity, and Measurement Theory, eds. Pierre Meystre and Marlan O. Scully, Proceedings Conf. Bad Windsheim 1981, 1983 Plenum Press New York, ISBN 0-306-41354-X, pg 363–427. Bailey et al., “Measurements of relativistic time dilation for positive and negative muons in a circular orbit,” Nature 268 (July 28, 1977) pg 301.
  • Doppler Shift Measurements: McGowan et al., Phys. Rev. Lett. 70 no. 3 (1993), pg 251. Olin et al., Phys. Rev. D8 no. 6 (1973), pg 1633. Mandelberg and Witten, Journal Opt. Soc. Amer. 52, pg 529 (1962).
  • Measurements of Particle Lifetimes: D. Frisch and J. Smith, “Measurement of the Relativistic Time Dilation Using Mesons”, Am. J. Phys. 31 (1963) 342. Ayres et al., Phys. Rev. D3 no. 5 (1971), pg 1051.
  • The Ives and Stilwell Experiment: H.E. Ives and G.R. Stilwell, “An Experimental Study of the Rate of a Moving Atomic Clock”, J. Opt. Soc. Am. 28 pg 215–226 (1938); JOSA 31 pg 369–374 (1941). Hasselkamp et al., Z. Physik A289 (1989), pg 151.
  • Other Experiments: Coleman and Glashow, “Cosmic ray and Neutrino Tests of Special Relativity”, preprint arxiv:hep-ph/9703240. Coleman and Glashow, “High-Energy Tests of Lorentz Invariance”, preprint arxiv:hep-ph/9812418.
  • The Trouton-Noble Experiment: Tomaschek, Ann. d Phys. 78 (1926), p743; 80 (1926), pg 509.
  • Zhang, Special Relativity and its Experimental Foundations.
  • The Kennedy-Thorndike Experiment
  • Wolf and Petit, “Satellite test of special relativity using the global positioning system”, Phys. Rev. A 56, p4405 (1997).

Anything that special relativity predicts can be predicted with other models not given over to such voodoo and arbitrary assumptions. Therefore Occams razor prevails.

You wouldn't find anywhere near the same concistent empirical accuracy. However, feel free to provide specific experiments and results thereof if you wish.
 
"Einstein considered that the relativity principle was not compatible with a preferred frame."

See what you seem to be saying here is that a preferred frame is an holistic view of reality. One where simultaneity is not arbitrary.

Hence what you appear to be saying is the following:

"Einstein considered that the relativity principle was not compatible with an holistic reality. With a reality based view of the situation"

You see its pretty clear that he cut corners and just made a whole lot of jive up. They had a problem. They couldn't quite square the answers to it. So he makes all these arbitrary assumptions. Like that there is no aether. And he takes an absolutist view of the speed of light. He says that space can curve or be compressed or stretched. Which is a blatant contradiction. Then there was time dilation which is absolute rubbish as well. Tendentiously created to solve a problem that they were finding difficult to solve.

There was absolutely no cause to make these other-worldly assumptions. They had a problem and sometimes you can get stuck on a problem for a very long time. Thats normal. But its not normal to just make the thing up tendentiously as a way of solving the mathematical side of the problem.

" Einstein first considered this aether; the privileged frame matter, as superfluous...." Thats a silly consideration right there.

"He did never acknowledge the existence of a preferred frame...." speak English. You are saying he didn't acknowledge the existence of an objective reality. Which means of course that he set flight into mysticism and voodoo.

" so his theory was compatible with the relativity principle......"

No it isn't. Velocity-absolutism is in total contradiction to velocity absolutism.

" So, Lorentz and Poincare developed most of the math used, but never fully embraced the principles behind it."

Neither should they have. They knew full well that Einstein had cut corners to come up with a pseudo-solution first to a problem that was proving intractable at the time. Thats one way to get there first. Show up with a pseudo-solution that is really forcing a square peg into a round hole.
 
Look White Lion. One macroscopic reference would do if any one of them were any good. They are all crap. They do not confirm the voodoo aspects of special relativity. So why don't you take one of them, have a good look at it, and show me why it is you think that it is evidence for some voodoo aspect of special relativity.

I'm an atheist. So I don't think you can do it.
 
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speak English. You are saying he didn't acknowledge the existence of an objective reality. Which means of course that he set flight into mysticism and voodoo.

I.e the given aether that was hypothesized, if this is your way of defining objective reality (aether) then you are neither speaking english or the language of empirical science.

Hence what you appear to be saying is the following:

The preferred frame was the hypothesized aether, I am not sure what your inference with "holistic reality" is about, since you do not specify anything with calculative details or examples, as opposed to rant on using a word you like.

There was absolutely no cause to make these other-worldly assumptions. They had a problem and sometimes you can get stuck on a problem for a very long time. Thats normal. But its not normal to just make the thing up tendentiously as a way of solving the mathematical side of the problem.

And when you have a mathematically valid tool together with a specific approach and prediction, and when this is confirmed again and again my experiments, you have something there (unless you ask GMB who will say "holistic reality" and deny).
 
Look White Lion. One macroscopic reference would do if any one of them were any good. They are all crap. They do not confirm the voodoo aspects of special relativity. So why don't you take one of them, have a good look at it, and show me why it is you think that it is evidence for some voodoo aspect of special relativity.

I'm an atheist. So I don't think you can do it.

You have a chance here to actually give an on-point critique on the basis of given experiments. A recent one was the initial site linked, but am I too go through them all for you, with nothing but an objection from you based on "holistic reality" sans any calculative rebuttal?

You first, the gauntlet is given of the experimental basis which you can't very well determine to be all crap in one turn and then ask to know what they are about. :rolleyes:
 
"And when you have a mathematically valid tool together with a specific approach and prediction, and when this is confirmed again and again my experiments, you have something there.."

Its a mathematical template for predictions is all. I know you are not finding any evidence for any of the voodoo assumptions within this bogus theory. So your filibuster begins now. We cannot really accept microscopic evidence since there is too many speculative aspects to it. And the potential for circularity is clear.

But fire away with your evidence. We will see that you don't have any.
 
So go over it again and this time in plain english. You ought not have tried that particular scam on in the first place. Lets make your wild claim explicit.
Is this some form of strange stock answer you use to avoid answering direct questions?

The question was very simple and in completely clear plain english.

Do you agree that inside a sealed laboratory in interstellar space, there is no experiment one can do to determine at which velocity the laboratory is moving?

Surely that is a simple question to understand and answer?
 
Third parties please note. At this point we can predict that white lion will fall in line with the practice of the filibuster. As good as he has been with the history this is what we can expect from here on in.

The idea if he wasn't shooting blanks, would be to go to a specific voodoo aspect of special relativity, and then find the right study or data, and then to explain in his own words very clearly why he thinks that this constitutes evidence.

He won't do it.

Because he doesn't have such a study available to him.
 

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