Merged Their Return

[aggle-rithm]

I don't believe in aliens...

Amen! We're all brothers under the semi-permeable membrane.

 

[aggle-rithm]

The work is an indication of advanced technology.

WHAT that technology actually was will be told when we find it.

Until then, all that we know is that we DON'T know what was used, that the technology used to accomplish these work is "lost".

And the logical assumption would be that this technology, in whatever form, was developed by known entities, not fanciful hobgoblins.

 

[King of the Americas]

Ah, I see... Generic, vague "advanced" as in "them", "ascended"...

But hey, if you can't find any single piece of the advanced hardware, then... Note you can not even find a bit of stainless steel, plastic, copper wire, glass, anything related to modern machinery at the sites you claim to have been built with these modern tool.

Now, besides this fact KotA, you are aware that each tool leaves its tell-tale mark on its product? So, where are the marks left by these advanced tools? Why there are no published study showing these marks?

And why are you ignoring the links we posted where experimental archeology folks say -and show- how the carvings could be made even with stone tools? Same is valid for the documentary on the building of Macchu Picchu?

Maybe because they do not fit with your "feelings"?

How can one be specific about something unknown?

You tell ME why there are no published works about the tool marks?

I haven't ignored anything. I said that 'shaping' sandstone, limestone, or even marble is NOT the same thing as carving descending squares in andesite.

I've never seen a documentary featuring THE known and demonstrated building techniques of Macchu Picchu. Which link did I miss?

 

[King of the Americas]

And the logical assumption would be that this technology, in whatever form, was developed by known entities, not fanciful hobgoblins.

I've never mentioned hobgoblins either...

 

[tsig]

I agree completely with the Stargate angle except for one minor quibble; Stargate's Ancients came from another galaxy.

KotA's "gods of the heavens" come from a garbled mess of explanations that equate to "aliens" in every sense but the simple fact that he doesn't want to call them that.

Either way; aliens, I say.

If they don't come from the USA* then they are aliens.

*insert your country here

 

[King of the Americas]

So you've never heard of Hero of Alexandria.

I have.

The guy who invented the steam engine, among other things, but never put most of them to work, right?

He was the first to 'know' that heat makes water and air expand.

While some of his knowledge is indeed lost, some of his work remains intact.

 

[tsig]

I have two chisels, one is carbide tipped, and the other is forged steel. I don't use the steel one on anything but limestone, and concrete patio stones. Granite dulls it fast. The granite dulls the carbide tip too, but you can get 'some' stone moved, (about- 6-8 grams), with an 1/8 inch lettering chisel, before it is dull.

Gold & copper alloys would be softer than my forged steel chisel...

Those stones weren't chiseled into those shapes.

Is this and argument from incompetence?

 

[King of the Americas]

Is this and argument from incompetence?

It is a hammer, chisel, and stone. The pointy end of the chisel goes on the stone, then you hit the other end with the hammer. The heavier the hammer or harder the swing, the more stone your chisel will remove until it is dull.

One's competence rises, when you learn how hard to strike which part of the stone to achieve a desired result.

A mechanical hammer knows nothing, but moves stone fast.

A master mason knows when, where, and how to remove the right amount of stone, in a precise manner.

Your repeated attacks on my experience while you have none whatsoever is sad.

 

[Hellbound]

It is a hammer, chisel, and stone. The pointy end of the chisel goes on the stone, then you hit the other end with the hammer. The heavier the hammer or harder the swing, the more stone your chisel will remove until it is dull.

One's competence rises, when you learn how hard to strike which part of the stone to achieve a desired result.

A mechanical hammer knows nothing, but moves stone fast.

A master mason knows when, where, and how to remove the right amount of stone, in a precise manner.

Your repeated attacks on my experience while you have none whatsoever is sad.

So, are hammer and chisel the only possible stoneworking instruments? Just curious, because that seems to be the basis of your argument.

 

[King of the Americas]

So, are hammer and chisel the only possible stoneworking instruments? Just curious, because that seems to be the basis of your argument.

TODAY we use air hammers, water jets, sandblasters, diamond tipped saws, and carbide tipped chisels.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE ANCIENTS USED, but they didn't do this work with simple alloyed chisels...

The basis of my argument is that there is too much mastery level work to do with subpar tools. This work was done by an unknown advanced technology...

 

[dafydd]

TODAY we use air hammers, water jets, sandblasters, diamond tipped saws, and carbide tipped chisels.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE ANCIENTS USED, but they didn't do this work with simple alloyed chisels...

The basis of my argument is that there is too much mastery level work to do with subpar tools. This work was done by an unknown advanced technology...

The basis of your argument is false.

 

[King of the Americas]

The basis of your argument is false.

Only if you ignore the amount of mastery level work.

 

[Hellbound]

I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE ANCIENTS USED, but they didn't do this work with simple alloyed chisels...

So the only thing you DO know is that it could not be done with chisels.

You have no idea what other tools and/or methods they might have had or used.

From your comments, it's been shown that you likely don't know what was possible at the time with the materials they had available.

Your estimates of the level of work and the time required for it are based on your lack of knowledge, detailed here.

Therefore, you have no basis for the statement:

The basis of my argument is that there is too much mastery level work to do with subpar tools. This work was done by an unknown advanced technology...

 

[Waterman]

So the OP wants us to speculate how to entice an assumed non-human intelligent race that lives in the near proximity of earth to reveal themselves to us. Unfortunately they have hidden themselves so well that we only have fleeting glimpses of them and know nothing about their nature or motivations. I am still reading this thread sorry if this is currently irrelevant.

IF we assume that they are grooming us for fodder and DNA source material I would think that like attracting bird to land, or a raccoon to visit your porch you might place out a big bowl of food out in plain sight perhaps shine lights on it. Any large sporting event could also be applicable.

IF we assume that they are really super intelligent and are looking for peers not subjects. It would also be reasonable to also think that they will see through our clumsy attempts at appeasement and see us as the backwards race we are and not worthy of revelation yet. Perhaps they will reveal themselves once they have determined we have advanced far enough mentally. The appeasement / adoration you imply would clearly indicate to them that we are not ready.

IF we assume that they are a bunch of joy riding hot rods that get a kick out of coming down every now and them to buzz some small group out in the middle of nowhere. Then there is probably nothing we can due to entice them, they get their kicks out of being mysterious and don’t want the spot light. If they did they would have already taken center stage somewhere. The World Cup Finals would have been an excellent opportunity. As pointed out if they did descend it would turn ANY event into a major event and all eyes would be turned in that direction.

IF we assume that they are waiting for us to reach some sort of mental level that has abandoned superstition and that their revelation will not cause worldwide panic. I would imagine that they would be waiting for a large majority of us to adopt a scientific mindset instead of a superstitious one. The best way to get them to descend would be to have the majority of the world to abandon religions and convert all the Houses of Worship into sometime more useful like parking lots, brothels or play grounds.

IF we assume that they are allergic to or find poisonous the trace byproducts of the burning of fossil fuels then they will not descend until we move completely to alternate energy methods and then atmosphere had been cleansed through natural processes.

IF we assume that they are out there and want to deal with humans on a business level perhaps they are already doing that. But they know that by revealing themselves they will cause significant damage to the economy and cause significant instability in the political realm. This would not be a problem is the majority of the world was largely under the sway of say a large corporation or a one world government. They are waiting on the New World Order or Wal-Mart to come to power so they only have to negotiate one treaty instead of hundreds.

IF we assume that they have developed sensory organs that can detect the radio frequency range they will probably not descend until we abandon that technology or they develop filters that do not affect their ability to communicate.

IF we assume that they find the odor of concrete or asphalt offensive that would explain why they never actually land in cities or populated areas. To get them to descend we would need to tear down all the concrete structures and rip up all the asphalt and find alternate construction methods and materials.

IF we assume that they really don’t care what we do or think and are nothing more than lab animals or pets, I think that anything that we do would solicit no more than a note in a technicians log book or an ‘isn’t that cute’ from a more kind hearted individual… if they have hearts…

If we assume that they actually feed off the psychic energy generated by emotional turmoil the best way to get them to descend would be to establish world peace. This would cause them to starve and force them out. However if this is the case they would probably do something to destabilize the Peace that has been established by setting themselves of as the enemy that we can’t reach. Perhaps they would operate covertly with targeted assassinations turning body guards on their charges when they appear too reasonable, initiate riots to destabilize governments, plant evidence of WMDs to instigate wars, fund fundamentalist organizations of all stripes to keep us at odds with each other and destroy our common round, call in to talk radio shows…

Whee that was fun.

 

[GeeMack]

It seems like this comment...

I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE ANCIENTS USED, [...]

... is in direct conflict with this comment just a couple sentences later...

This work was done by an unknown advanced technology...

Claiming to not know in one breath, then demanding that we accept the premise of "advanced technology" in the next, is an argument from BS. Whether this is the work of a troll or not, it is absolutely the tactics of a troll.

 

[dafydd]

Only if you ignore the amount of mastery level work.

It's what masons do.

 

[Marduk]

Which link did I miss?

All of them, and particularly this

which shows drill marks made by a native drill on a puma punku block, the same type used to make holes in beads, like these

these are made of Jadeite which is harder than andesite
so what KotA is saying here, is that native beads can only be made with advanced technology
woop de woop

 

[aggle-rithm]

I've never mentioned hobgoblins either...

What would you call them, then?

And why would they be the more likely explanation than the people we KNOW were there?

Let's put it this way: Say you have a pack of cigarettes locked in a cabinet in your kitchen. They go missing, even though the cabinet remains locked and you have the only key.

Would it be more reasonable to assume that the culprit is:

A. A burglar?
B. A crafty teenager?
C. Bigfoot?

Hint: None of these options becomes more likely simply because we don't know how the cigarettes were taken.

 

[aggle-rithm]

All of them, and particularly this
[qimg]http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a178/belmarduk/pumapunka14.jpg[/qimg]

which shows drill marks made by a native drill on a puma punku block, the same type used to make holes in beads, like these
[qimg]http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a178/belmarduk/history_jewelry_aztec_jadite_beads.jpg[/qimg]
these are made of Jadeite which is harder than andesite
so what KotA is saying here, is that native beads can only be made with advanced technology
woop de woop

One of my favorite stories is that of Easter Island, where western visitors puzzled over the giant statues found there. There were many competing theories about how they were crafted, from fairly reasonable explanations to the intervention of aliens or supernatural beings.

Then some clever soul got the bright idea to actually ASK THE PEOPLE THAT LIVED THERE how the statues were built...and they, of course, knew exactly how it was done.

Some people will continue to believe it was the aliens, though.

 

[Stray Cat]

One of my favorite stories is that of Easter Island, where western visitors puzzled over the giant statues found there. There were many competing theories about how they were crafted, from fairly reasonable explanations to the intervention of aliens or supernatural beings.

Then some clever soul got the bright idea to actually ASK THE PEOPLE THAT LIVED THERE how the statues were built...and they, of course, knew exactly how it was done.

Ah, but how did one get all the way to Crete?