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Merged Their Return

King of the Americas said:
Ezekiel claimed to have seen file within wheels blah blah blah.

People followed a pillar of fire through the desert that rained manna down on them.
What's the reality behind these stories?
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The first one lauded by ufonuts as a description of a UFO fits much better the standard form of the Chaldean Zodiac. The closest example of which that currently exists is in the Louvre
http://0.tqn.com/d/astrology/1/7/X/4/-/-/zodiac2.jpg
oh look, a wheel within a wheel.
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et1201.htm
Have a guess where Ezekiel lived
yes, thats right, he lived in Chaldea, and as a forced immigrant he would have just been introduced to such ideas, besides, what ufos have you heard of that took the form of four creatures, who had genitals
If you'd actually read the whole text rather than just believing what you'd heard from your ufo sources you might have been aware that Ezekiel makes it quite clear that this was a vision, not real life.
The second one is from the Exodus, which has been proven completely fictional over and over, so thats kinda irrelevant
The primary source for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, is the old testament. Neither city is attested by any records from the actual cultures they were supposed to have existed in. Bit of an oversight, thats like New York getting nuked and it not making the papers.
;)
I'm wondering King, are you aware of the claims made in Akkadian texts for city destruction ?
 
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King of the Americas said:
If you asked anyone on earth, "Where is god?"

What might your answer likely be?
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But it turns out that that has changed. Just because you'd give that answer for your god, it doesn't mean that everyone in all ages answered the same.

E.g., if you asked an Egyptian "where is Osiris?", their answer would actually be "in the underworld". There were no Egyptian gods who just who stayed up in the heavens, except maybe Nut who was the heaven. Even Ra and his entourage sailed over the sky for half the day -- but, really, even then on the surface of the sky towards us, not "in" the sky -- and was in the underworld the rest of the time. The Egyptians were very different from the Mesopotamians in their religion.

But even the Mesopotamians had deities that stayed under the ground. E.g., Ereshkigal is pissed off at Inana and tries to keep her in the underworld precisely because Ereshkigal as a death deity can't leave the underworld. So, you know, why should her sister Inana have all the fun on the surface?

E.g., in Norse myths, the Aesir don't really live in the sky, but basically in a parallel Earth. Well, not really, but it's just another realm in the branches of Yggdrasil, the world tree, just like Midgard is. Their realm is just 1 of 9 different worlds in that tree, just like our world is one of those nine.

E.g., for the ancient Greeks, the Gods lived on a very tall and inaccessible mountain, not properly in the sky.
 
King of the Americas said:
While that's all well and good, it doesn't really address the 'god(s) of heaven', that people report to have actually SEEN and witnessed.

Ezekiel claimed to have seen file within wheels blah blah blah.

People followed a pillar of fire through the desert that rained manna down on them.

Yes, sure people worship the sun, the moon, the earth and anything on it, but there are a great many that worship "god(s) of heaven", as in actually individuals, or maybe ONE individual. I refer to those who 'watch over us', that sometimes intercede to protect some of us.

Angels save escort Lott away from a town, then "God" rains fire and brimstone down on it...

What's the reality behind these stories?
Click to expand...


Space aliens?
 
King of the Americas said:
While that's all well and good, it doesn't really address the 'god(s) of heaven', that people report to have actually SEEN and witnessed.

Ezekiel claimed to have seen file within wheels blah blah blah.

People followed a pillar of fire through the desert that rained manna down on them.

Yes, sure people worship the sun, the moon, the earth and anything on it, but there are a great many that worship "god(s) of heaven", as in actually individuals, or maybe ONE individual. I refer to those who 'watch over us', that sometimes intercede to protect some of us.

Angels save escort Lott away from a town, then "God" rains fire and brimstone down on it...

What's the reality behind these stories?
Click to expand...

You can't take BS stories to mean anything actually happened, or you'd actually have to find some truth behind Batman.

1. There is no indication that Ezekiel was seeing those in anything else than a vision. There is no "what really happened" there, except maybe a bad acid trip, presumably the ergot kind. You don't have some kind of aliens behind every single guy who tripped balls and saw Superman, you know?

2. There is no evidence that the Exodus ever happened. There are no bones, no litter, no nothing that you'd expect to find from two million people spending 40 years in a desert, advancing at a rate of 25 miles a year. There is no mention anywhere else that 90% of the Egypt's total population left and probably another couple of percent were smitten by God to make a point, and it's the kind of thing which would actually make an impact even in archaeology and history of the next years. Etc.

It's silly to ask what's the historical thing followed by some people who weren't there, because the story never happened.

I mean, at that point you might as well ask what kind of alien is Santa.
 
Gawdzilla said:
There's always some idiot ready to make up ****. Nothing more complicated than that for the origins of the gods.
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.
And that's the story, in a nuts shell.
There's always some swiftie who figures out how to make a good living off the sweat and effort of others by scaring them with fancy stories around the campfire.
 
King of the Americas said:
While that's all well and good, it doesn't really address the 'god(s) of heaven', that people report to have actually SEEN and witnessed.

Ezekiel claimed to have seen file within wheels blah blah blah.

People followed a pillar of fire through the desert that rained manna down on them.

Yes, sure people worship the sun, the moon, the earth and anything on it, but there are a great many that worship "god(s) of heaven", as in actually individuals, or maybe ONE individual. I refer to those who 'watch over us', that sometimes intercede to protect some of us.

Angels save escort Lott away from a town, then "God" rains fire and brimstone down on it...

What's the reality behind these stories?
Click to expand...

I'm not even convinced that your premise is fair, so rather than offering specific explanations I was more focused on a general discussion about how we've used theology/mythology to arrive at explanations, prior to scientific rigor.

But since you're still giving that same premise a good workout, here's my issue with it:
Your key examples; Cyclops and Mermaids come burdened with an assertion that each mythology has a single rational counterpoint (mammoth skulls, manatees), which you then use to conclude that either every mythology, or at least the 'God' mythology should likewise have a single rational counterpoint.

This argument is neither sound, nor valid.
Firstly mythologies are highly culturally sensitive; you just happened to have picked two from the ancient Greek tradition. Apparently similar mythologies can have different possible triggers (the western Dragon most probably derived from fossils and a religious association with fire as an evil force, while the Asian dragon seems to connect more with living sea-serpent folklore and a religious association with water). Similarly, a single trigger might lead to different mythologies (a dolphin could become either a herald of Poseidon's good grace, or a shapeshifting gigolo who seduces young women at night).

Notably neither of these possibilities leads to the conclusion that a given mythology -must have- some rational trigger. It's still entirely possible for a myth to be wholly constructed or allegorical in nature... For instance in my experience many Australian Aboriginal Dreamtime myths are extraordinarily difficult to pin on specific triggers. They really are very dream-like and elusive.

[edit]
As for the Biblical tales, from an evidentiary perspective they amount to little more than heavily edited anecdotes. In lieu of any independent lines of corroborative evidence, it's simply unreasonable to demand that they be accepted uncritically.
 
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TheCaptn said:
...

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As for the Biblical tales, from an evidentiary perspective they amount to little more than heavily edited anecdotes. In lieu of any independent lines of corroborative evidence, it's simply unreasonable to demand that they be accepted uncritically.
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I am NOT suggesting uncritical acceptance...

Anecdotes do not equal scientific proof, I KNOW I KNOW I KNOW.

But just because it is an anecdote, doesn't make it fiction. It is a story from one person's perspective, sometimes two or more. The question is still, what was the actual genesis of these tales. People are STILL observing 'agents of heaven' that are more capable than we are, we just don't call them gods or angels anymore.

I would however, like to thank you for your thoughtful response. Your time here is appreciated.
 
But just because it is an anecdote, doesn't make it fiction. It is a story from one person's perspective, sometimes two or more. The question is still, what was the actual genesis of these tales. People are STILL observing 'agents of heaven' that are more capable than we are, we just don't call them gods or angels anymore.
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I would agree with your premise there... a tale always has a genesis based on something that really happened.

However...

It is always a mistake to generalize historical events from a mythological basis. For example, your bit about cyclops being based on elephants. As was correctly pointed out to you, such stories are likely based on older stories who are based on even older, often unwritten stories. Often these stories are not even from the same culture. Ancient people traveled extensively and stories spread. Your cyclops story could have come from a chieftain who was missing an eye. Or it could have been a play on words or even a metaphor about being short sighted... etc.

The real way to learn about the origin of myth is to look at the specific myth and examine it for clues as to it's origin based on actual history and archeology. A shallow understanding will only yield your own mythology, not theirs.

BTW... one way to understand UFO sightings is to see it as what people have done for millennia. Taking old mythologies and reinterpreting them to fit their own time. Angels become aliens, not because angels were aliens... but because we expect them to be aliens based on our current culture.

It's what we have always done.
 
King of the Americas said:
But just because it is an anecdote, doesn't make it fiction. It is a story from one person's perspective, sometimes two or more. The question is still, what was the actual genesis of these tales. People are STILL observing 'agents of heaven' that are more capable than we are, we just don't call them gods or angels anymore.
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you've been told many times about the origin of Angels
you have never bothered to check if the answer you were given was accurate
you will not bother to check any of the answers you are given in this thread

youre only here waiting for someone, anyone to agree with you
what does it tell you that nobody is, the vast majority of whom actually know more about the subject than you ever bothered to find out.
:confused:
what do you actually want to hear ?

btw, theres a new book out you may be interested in called
The Cryptoterrestrials,
http://www.anomalistbooks.com/tonnies.html
check it out, now your fantasy has a name. Just don't expect much more from the same author
:D
 
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No. The analogy is far too literal and only works if you ignore the obvious.

God is based on the ultimate example of reality, and the question we derive from looking at this reality. SOMETHING IS HAPPENING AND I AM HERE. Giraffes eat tall things, vultures have no feathers on their head to avoid debris and diseased left overs. Humans question.

The problem is, we bring emotional satisfaction into this issue.

God needed no proto god like being to inspire the idea. The Universe is that thing. The only thing you need to connect is the idea we seem to think we're important in the scheme of things in some way, and that our way of looking at the world has to be the "actual" way. Thus, we merge the ideas and create an identity, a being, we're looking into a mirror and seeing our own projections.

The anthropic principal does not satisfy you as an answer because you desire too much from your existence and you've demonstrated you're incapable of divorcing that bias and desire from your natural curiosity.

God is psychology, God is when you realize your parents are humans and the absolute void they leave demands you look at it and admit your life is in your own hands, and sometimes you are powerless completely. And nobody can assist you in this impotence.

This powerless feeling easily transmits to fear and doubt and confusion.

How easy it is to pretend otherwise, and how far people will go to defend that comforting lie.
 
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RobDegraves said:
...

BTW... one way to understand UFO sightings is to see it as what people have done for millennia. Taking old mythologies and reinterpreting them to fit their own time. Angels become aliens, not because angels were aliens... but because we expect them to be aliens based on our current culture.

It's what we have always done.
Click to expand...

My point herein is that 'stuff in the sky' has been leading people to make up religions for quite a while. Some of them have been found to be mundane: Surya became our solar star, Thor became lightening & thunder, I'd just wonder what today's U.F.O.'s and Ezekiel's fiery chariots will become...
 
King of the Americas said:
My point herein is that 'stuff in the sky' has been leading people to make up religions for quite a while. Some of them have been found to be mundane: Surya became our solar star, Thor became lightening & thunder.
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you got that the wrong way round, thunder and lightning became Thor,
our sun became Surya,
theres this thing called Anthropomorphism, its very well attested

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropomorphism
King of the Americas said:
I'd just wonder what today's U.F.O.'s and Ezekiel's fiery chariots will become...
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You've been told that Ezekiel is not a valid point several times
Why do you insist on continually being willfully ignorant ?
:rolleyes:
UFO's are already explained, just because you don't want to believe it doesn't make it untrue.
 
King of the Americas said:
I am NOT suggesting uncritical acceptance...
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Yeah, my bad. I could have worded that better.

The question is still, what was the actual genesis of these tales. People are STILL observing 'agents of heaven' that are more capable than we are, we just don't call them gods or angels anymore.
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Again you seem to be working backwards from an a priori conclusion that the whole phenomena shares a single genesis. In looking for that you're essentially just setting up an impossible task.
The only way I know of to find actual answers is to investigate each specific case individually, and the mostly likely conclusion that will lead you to is that there is no single genesis.
There may be many cases which share a genesis, for instance there could be a few deliberate fictions, and a lot of misinterpreted natural phenomena, and possibly even a real case (I can't dismiss that, no matter how unlikely), but there won't be a universally applicable explanation.

That's why, as skeptics, we can never give a simple solves-everything answer... All we can do is say "pick your best/favourite/most perplexing cases and let's investigate those in more detail".
 
TheCaptn said:
That's why, as skeptics, we can never give a simple solves-everything answer... All we can do is say "pick your best/favourite/most perplexing cases and let's investigate those in more detail".
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we did that numerous times already with credibly sourced material and the opinions of experts, King always thinks he knows better while at the same time demonstrating to everybody that he doesn't have a clue. He is not a sceptic
;)

for instance, ask him what percentage of UFO reports are completely unexplained and he'll quickly answer "around 5%"

yet for his claim that Gods are based on cryptoterrestrials he requires 100% of sightings to be an airborne advanced race, he doesn't seem to understand the significance that the mundane 95% means that by his own hypothesis, that would also mean that Gods are 95% explainable by misidentified mundane phenomena in ancient times. Apparently, in his mind, the less humanity knows about science as we go back in time the more they are able to easily identify the mundane and discard it from the equation
 
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Marduk said:
you got that the wrong way round, thunder and lightning became Thor,
our sun became Surya,
theres this thing called Anthropomorphism, its very well attested

...

You've been told that Ezekiel is not a valid point several times
Why do you insist on continually being willfully ignorant ?
:rolleyes:
UFO's are already explained, just because you don't want to believe it doesn't make it untrue.
Click to expand...

Your first point is WRONG. There was no 'science' around to KNOW what a star or lightening and thunder was. Surya WAS only the Sun, but no one KNEW that, and no one had ran any tests to prove that. Lightening and thunder while real, no one understood or studied the phenomena, so they made up a God- Thor to represent it. Even if ONE scientist DID manage to see lightening cause thunder, without a test to prove it, it just wasn't so. Mermaids 'became' manatees, when scientists discovered them. That said, I concede that the reality of the Sun, lightening & thunder, and manatees all existed before man could prove it.

Sir with all due respect, you don't know what Ezekiel saw, what U.F.O.'s are in reality, or what is or is not true with regards to heavenly agents. Sadly you are not qualified to discard reports of fiery chariots from this or any other time period.
 
TheCaptn said:
Yeah, my bad. I could have worded that better.


...

That's why, as skeptics, we can never give a simple solves-everything answer... All we can do is say "pick your best/favourite/most perplexing cases and let's investigate those in more detail".
Click to expand...

No problem, you are easily one of the more civil posters I've had the opportunity to interact with.

Could you take a look at "The Madonna with Saint Giovannino". It was painted in the 15th century by Domenico Ghirlandaio (1449-1494). Then let me know if the image in the background looks to you like a flying saucer.

What I am saying is that historical agents of heaven aren't as dis-similar as more modern versions, as you may believe.
 
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