The Zombie Poll

[Apathia]

Regardless, I have to second jmercer.....I think it's a great story idea. You could have a lot of fun with it.

I'm having other story fun at the moment. I have number of good ideas sitting on the shelf. But I won't leave this one to rot.

 

[Foster Zygote]

None Of Them Knew They Were Robots

Mendel's machines replicate in the night
In the black iron prison of St. Augustine's light
He's paying the bills and they're doing him proud
They can float their burnt offerings on assembler clouds

With omega point in sight
The new Franklins fly their kites
And the post modern empire is ended tonight

From history
The flood of counterfeits released
The black cloud
Reductionism and the beast
Automatons gather all the pieces
So the world may be increased
In simulation jubilation
For the deceased...

Spray-on clothes and diamond jaws
Wrinkles smoothed by nanoclaws

With my machines I can dispatch you
From this world without a trace
Our nostalgia ghosts are ready to take your place

Content-shifting shopping malls
Gasoline trees and walk-through walls

None of them knew...

I feel the grey goo boiling my blood
As I watch the dead rise up out of the earth
Try to hide from the lies as they all come true

Deus absconditus
Deus nullus deus nisi deus

I feel the grey goo boiling my blood
As the fenris wolf slowly bites through his chain
Try to hide the myth as it becomes a man

None of them knew they were robots

buying an X or an O
In state craft tic tac toe
Cat's game for Joe Blow

Post industrial bliss
A binary hug or kiss
Can be wrung from utility mist

They stole the great arcanum
The secret fire
Moloch found his gold
For the new empire
Once again
The necrophage becomes saint

Lindy hop around the truth
Jump back wolf pack attack
Slap back white shark attack
Swingin' up there in the noose
Jump back wolf pack attack
Slap back white shark attack

Phased array diffraction nets
from full-wall paint-on TV sets
Migratory home sublets
And time share diamond fiber sets

Recombinant logo keys
Bitic Qabalistic trees

I feel the grey goo boiling my blood
As leviathan and his bugs freeze the sea
Try to save the world by immolating myself

From history
The flood of counterfeits released
The black cloud
The resurrection of the deceased
Automatons gather all the pieces
So the world may be increased
In simulation jubilation
For the builders
Of the body of the beast

Lyrics by Spruance

 

[jmercer]

I'm having other story fun at the moment. I have number of good ideas sitting on the shelf. But I won't leave this one to rot.

Cool.

Keep in mind a couple of possible dimensions (or should I say demonsions? )

If there is a God and Satan, would a soulless priest be up for grabs? Would he automatically be a shill for Satan, since he's soulless? (Want an out later on in the story - golems were soulless clay servants in the old testament, neither good or evil. You could give the priest a free ride on "automatic evil" by that precedent)

And could - by divine intervention - the priest gain a soul or grow one later on? How would soullnessness affect his judgement? Moreover, if he has no soul, he won't be going to heaven OR hell... so what would keep him from being utterly amoral? A good soulless priest would be a fantastic hero, because he has no reason to be good other than his own ethics. Ditto his opposite.

When you get right down to it, there would be a plague of soulless individuals from every one who was transported. Would their children have souls? And if so, what would happen between the parents and kids?

Lots and lots and lots of possible doors to walk through.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Since golems were mentioned, how 'bout one more song?

Hello Cleavland!

Golem II: The Bionic Vapour Boy

Golem II: the self-perfecting
Lie-rejecting
Human mind correcting

Totem of the living
Self-organized, wrought from the clay
Our king by night, our slave by the day

Giga-giga-Gilgamesh

What do you know?
Watch the human life show
OK let's go

O my double
He can pop your bubble
That means trouble

Stronger than a lion
Golem II: the bionic paper boy

Self-perfecting
World-inspecting
Lie-detecting

Our instructions
His induction
Big production

Golem II: the bionic puppet boy

Giga-Gilgamesh
Gigagigagigagiga
Beast of burden

Spirit lifting
Master of shape-shifting
Seamless drifting

Shining spotlight
Screaming mobs and stagefright
You get it right

Building a new Zion
Golem II: the bionic vapour boy

War-directing
Mind-inspecting
Man-correcting

Our instructions
His induction
Big production

Golem II: the bionic vapour boy

Lyrics by Spruance

 

[Dancing David]

So the point of this is how we define the condition known as 'identity'

we have various options,

static and unchanging, in that atoms and molecules remain the same, perhaps with some leee wayy for the loss of molecules and atoms, ie the Mona Lisa after it has some paint scraped in a small area, identity with minor alteration

then there is the gradual change identity, the painting is cleaned and restored , perhaps some paint is added to replace the lost paint

then there is the continuing but changing identity, this is the most aanlogous to the op, wherein an object is gradualy replaced as in the ship of Praxis(I think?) where an item is replaced by items over time. Or in the OP where a process is gradualy continued through the process of replacing the items that create the process.

So it really just gets to the definition of identity.

I say that the human android with the silicon brain is 'conscious' but just as I am not the same biological/social/psychological entity momnet by moment the two are not identical.

Just so people know, nuerons are not stable, they grow and are altered in thier property in the network, they are potentiated and attenuated to 'fire', they are not static and just like any good storgae and processing system ther is a lot of redindancy in the nueral network.

But is a person with alzheimers the same person they used to be, is thier consciousness the same, why is this different or the same to a person without alzheimer's?

 

[Apathia]

Just so people know, nuerons are not stable, they grow and are altered in thier property in the network, they are potentiated and attenuated to 'fire', they are not static and just like any good storgae and processing system ther is a lot of redindancy in the nueral network.

Thanks Dancing David,

I wonder why it is that so many of us have a 19th century, mechanical mindset that thinks it's all just little static parts you put together then turn the crank?

 

[Correa Neto]

Uhm...

If only God can create a soul and create life, then why would the Church care about saving the souls of the people who were beamed to somewhere else?

They would be nothing but souless p-zombies, after all.

Sorry if I missed the explanation for this somewhere along the thread...

 

[Apathia]

Uhm...

If only God can create a soul and create life, then why would the Church care about saving the souls of the people who were beamed to somewhere else?

They would be nothing but souless p-zombies, after all.

Sorry if I missed the explanation for this somewhere along the thread...

As far as my story goes, the mission is to intellient life on another planet. of course that has a bunch of questions on its own for prelats to wring their hands about.

The Church would otherwise be telling its flock that a teleport journey amounted to an immediate excommunication and a one way ticket to Hell.

Nostrilldumass predicts that a good Catholic family will call off a forced marriage of their daughter to the guy who got her pregnant because they'll find out he's a "zombie."

But if the father of the child is a "zombie" ...?

 

[Correa Neto]

Ah yeah, that would cause some problems to the homuncle idea for conception and the consequent "every sperm is sacred" line...

The missionaries' targets, the intelligent life, are they non-humans? Maybe you could draw some parallels with the discussions if native South Americans and Africans had souls.

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

Hey, if you're going to have singing Monty Pythoners in this book I insist that you finish it before the sun sets.

 

[Correa Neto]

Uhmm...

Sorry. Its already night here. Well, we can always try the Timecube...

In the meanwhile...

NI!

 

[jmercer]

But is a person with alzheimers the same person they used to be, is thier consciousness the same, why is this different or the same to a person without alzheimer's?

Good post.

Well... legally, they are. Biologically, they are. (A gene test would prove that.)

But in the final stages of the disease, I don't think that the consciousness exists any more - I think it's been destroyed. (At least I hope not. Imagine the suffering if they were aware of their condition...)

So we're down to that inanswerable issue - what is consciousness? Urk.

 

[Apathia]

we're down to that inanswerable issue - what is consciousness? Urk.

So, let's start ticking off what it isn't.
It isn't your ego image of who you are.

 

[jmercer]

So, let's start ticking off what it isn't.
It isn't your ego image of who you are.

Ok, that's one. I think.

It's not what drives a person; such as sexual drive, drive to succeed, drive to fail, etc.

Ack.

I'm running out of things that consciousness is not, which is weird. You'd think it would be easy.

I was going to say consciousness isn't based in the classical senses, but I can't justify that. I don't know of any documented cases of full sensory deprivation. (Even the sensory deprivation tanks still don't stop you from hearing your own heart or seeing random stimulation from the visual system, or hearing the vibration from your breathing, etc.)

So that's an interesting consideration. I suspect that consciousness would still exist if there were full sensory deprivation - but how do we prove that?

 

[Correa Neto]

So do I, but only if previously the subject had enough sensorial imputs to "build" a consiousness, self, whatever you name it and whatever it actually is. And of course, the possibility of processing the data to build one.

I think it would be a dreadfull experience.

 

[Apathia]

So that's an interesting consideration. I suspect that consciousness would still exist if there were full sensory deprivation - but how do we prove that?

In a few years we may be able to parse out just what como of brain wave activity corresspond to being conscious and self-counscious. Then we can put someone in a sensory deprivation tank or what not, and see what's going on.

Meanwhile the world's literature of altered states in meditaion says that there is a state of consciouness where consciouness has no object as such to be conscious of apart from its own objectless self. One word for this is "samadhi."

Sensory Deprivation is a time tested way to produce hallucinations. Initially the mind doesn't like the vacumn and toss up some fake content to keep itself occupied.

 

[jmercer]

Ok. So the list of what is not consciousness seems to be a very short one so far.

What's left is rediculously large. I can't even say "Consciousness is not physical", because it very well could be.

 

[Apathia]

Ok. So the list of what is not consciousness seems to be a very short one so far.

Oh, we've taken the short cut and dissmissed a whole lot of stuff in mass.

What's left is rediculously large. I can't even say "Consciousness is not physical", because it very well could be.

Ah, there's some leftover stuff! What is the stuff of consciousness? Ectoplasm? Ether? Qi? Ki? Mana? Is consciousness stuff?

Of course your brain cells are stuff. But is imagination stuff?
Let's go over to Limbo9's Thought Forms Thread.

Conscouness is a slippery eel! (metaphorically speaking)
Is your body consciouness? well, uh, your're conscious nof your body.

 

[jmercer]

Sometimes I'm conscious of other bodies as well.

 

[President Bush]

In Operant Conditioning, behaviors are defined by their function (as opposed to the topology of the behavior); it does not matter what the details of the movements are, what matters is what is accomplished. (as a simple example, it does not matter whether, in basketball, one shoots a foul shot right-handed, left-handed, two-handed, underhanded...what matters is whether or not it goes in.)

Given that the OP spoke of awareness and consciousness issues, the "function" is understood to be defined by those behaviors. If consciousness is dependent on nerve function, then that function is served--by definition in the OP--by the replacement. If, on the other hand, consciousness is not dependent on nerve function, then the replacement is irrelevant. Using the phrase "precisely the same function" renders the question trivial.

Wish I could assume you refer to behaviors more complicated than pigeons playing ping-pong. While according to Skinner...

. . . the conditions that determine the form of probability of an operant are in a person’s history . . . they are easily overlooked. It is then easy to believe that the will is free . . . . The spontaneous generation of behavior has reached the same stage as the spontaneous generation of maggots and microorganisms in Pasteur’s day.

http://hal.psych.uw.edu.pl/2004zalaczniki/Malone_2.pdf

In a behavioristic world (material determinism) wouldn't all of our thoughts/behaviors be determined?

Like I said before, looks like nobody is voting for her/himself in this poll.