The Zeitgeist Movement... why not?

[Zerror]

Please re-read my post. I actually said exactly the opposite of this.

yes you did, but it is obvious that you are glad to live in the US/western EU and to use things that are made in third world countries... so, you are `entitled` to things that Asian boy isn't only by accident of birth.

All of us should have these things? And who should provide them?

I don't have an answer how, but I think that can be done...

It's interesting that you see humanity as something apart from nature.

It isn't, nature doesn't destroys nature on purpose, as humanity do. I can't say that I live in nature, I live in concrete building, I drive on asphalt, I am surrounded with plastics. Nature is scarce today. (And you have to buy a trip, just to be in contact with nature)

The results of poverty which is usually linked to inadequate governance, crony capitalism but not to "profit systems." A profit system actually benefits if the new boy turns out to be a new Nikola Tesla.

yep, profit system would benefit from that boy, but profit system prevents it from happening. So the potential is wasted.

I'm not sure where you are getting this argument about "entitlement." A boy born in America benefits from accident of birth to be in a mature, developed economy. The boy in the poor unnamed Asian country is, conversely, hobbled by not being born into such an environment.

is that ok? I don't think so... that lack of education that boy gets is afterwards shown in high fertility rate... which, again, produces more unhealthy environment for future boys and girls.

What in the world do internment camps have to do with this discussion?

it just shows how easily people can be forced or manipulated by their own government... Like believing that bombing of Iraq is a good idea because of chemical weapons. Or believing that bombing of Serbia is good because of violation of human rights.

Once more, i am sorry for my language, I am trying to be as clear as possible, but English is my third language...

 

[Travis]

It isn't, nature doesn't destroys nature on purpose, as humanity do.

Army ants have conservation programs? A lion will refrain from killing an antelope because the lion knows it needs to keep the antelope population stable?

Nature has no purpose.

I can't say that I live in nature, I live in concrete building, I drive on asphalt, I am surrounded with plastics. Nature is scarce today. (And you have to buy a trip, just to be in contact with nature)

Lime isn't natural? Aggregate isn't natural? Tar and sand aren't natural? I'm pretty sure that polymers aren't summoned into existence by warlocks as well.

yep, profit system would benefit from that boy, but profit system prevents it from happening. So the potential is wasted.

Please explain how "profit systems" prevent people from getting education and maximizing their potential.

is that ok? I don't think so... that lack of education that boy gets is afterwards shown in high fertility rate... which, again, produces more unhealthy environment for future boys and girls.

Whether it's "okay" is irrelevant. I wish I had been born as a good looking millionaire playboy who attracts Russian centerfold models like feces does flies. However, I wasn't, so....is that "okay?" Should I start a movement to make it a requirement that Russian centerfolds must mate with all men so that things are fair?

it just shows how easily people can be forced or manipulated by their own government... Like believing that bombing of Iraq is a good idea because of chemical weapons.

You know I was advocating invading Iraq long before the Bush Administration even came to power.... and, no, chemical weapons were not why I wanted it to happen.

Or believing that bombing of Serbia is good because of violation of human rights.

Except that bombing Serbia was a good thing. In my opinion of course.

 

[theprestige]

yes you did, but it is obvious that you are glad to live in the US/western EU and to use things that are made in third world countries... so, you are `entitled` to things that Asian boy isn't only by accident of birth.

I think the problem is that you have no idea what "entitled" actually means.

There are plenty of people in the world who are much better off than I am. But I don't think I'm entitled to some part of their lifestyle. I don't think they owe me any of their money. I don't think that they should share their yachts and mansions and good food and personal trainers and plastic surgeons with me--even though I could certainly benefit from those things. I could benefit from a college degree, but I don't think Bill Gates should pay for my education.

And I bet you are not as well-off as I am. How about this: If you can convince me that you're entitled to some of my wealth, then I'll not only share that amount with you, but I'll share another, equal amount with the 12 year old asian boy of your choice.

So. Tell me how much of my wealth you're entitled to, and why.

 

[Zerror]

Army ants have conservation programs? A lion will refrain from killing an antelope because the lion knows it needs to keep the antelope population stable?

Nature has no purpose.

Ants will collect just enough food to survive. A lion will not kill 10 antelopes for sport, but one for food... Nature is closed ecosystem that we, humans, have made imbalanced.

Lime isn't natural? Aggregate isn't natural? Tar and sand aren't natural? I'm pretty sure that polymers aren't summoned into existence by warlocks as well.

point missed. Nature with the capital N is diminishing. Of course sand and tar are natural, and so is radioactivity, but you don't see anyone happily running into radiation field. You just gave me a weird argument

Please explain how "profit systems" prevent people from getting education and maximizing their potential.

Isn't that obvious. People don't have time to learn because they have to work for minimal wages.

Whether it's "okay" is irrelevant. I wish I had been born as a good looking millionaire playboy who attracts Russian centerfold models like feces does flies. However, I wasn't, so....is that "okay?" Should I start a movement to make it a requirement that Russian centerfolds must mate with all men so that things are fair?

what you say is irrelevant... I am propagating minimum for decent life.

You know I was advocating invading Iraq long before the Bush Administration even came to power.... and, no, chemical weapons were not why I wanted it to happen.

So, you were advocating death for your own people

Except that bombing Serbia was a good thing. In my opinion of course.

I would like that you give me reasons why was bombing Serbia a good thing on PM... I would like to hear them and this topic is not about that.

I think the problem is that you have no idea what "entitled" actually means.

There are plenty of people in the world who are much better off than I am. But I don't think I'm entitled to some part of their lifestyle. I don't think they owe me any of their money. I don't think that they should share their yachts and mansions and good food and personal trainers and plastic surgeons with me--even though I could certainly benefit from those things. I could benefit from a college degree, but I don't think Bill Gates should pay for my education.

You should get education for free!

And I bet you are not as well-off as I am. How about this: If you can convince me that you're entitled to some of my wealth, then I'll not only share that amount with you, but I'll share another, equal amount with the 12 year old asian boy of your choice.

Not enough data to compare us.
But you are sharing something with me, you are giving your knowledge (whatever, true or false, it is) for free.

So. Tell me how much of my wealth you're entitled to, and why.

As much as you give me with this conversation. In the name of this forum is word educational.

There are no greater wealth than knowledge.

 

[theprestige]

You should get education for free!

Really? Really? For free? Are you sure?

If I'm to be educated, I'll need a teacher. So that right there means that somehow somebody needs to keep this person alive. Somebody needs to find enough food and shelter and care, to keep them alive and healthy long enough to reach adulthood. And then somebody needs to keep them fed and sheltered and healthy enough to actually, you know, educate me.

Keeping a human being alive and healthy isn't free at all. It costs. It costs time and effort and resources of all kinds. Somebody has to pay that cost.

On top of that, there's the cost of the teacher's own education. They can only teach me what they themselves have learned. So there's the extra time and effort and resources that must be spent to send them to interesting places, to give them interesting experiences. Even more costs if you want to give them tutors--yet more people who have to be kept alive and healthy--to guide them in learning valuable lessons from their experiences, that they can then pass on to me.

Even if I'm going to teach myself, somebody to pay all the costs of keeping myself alive and healthy, and giving myself experiences to learn from.

So. Are you going to pay for my "free" education? Am I going to get my education without anybody having to do any work at all? How does this "free education" thing work, in your mind?

But you are sharing something with me, you are giving your knowledge (whatever, true or false, it is) for free.

No. Just... NO.

In order to think clearly, I need a good night's rest, sheltered from the elements. That shelter was not free. I had to work hard, to get that shelter.

And I also need food in my belly. Something nutritious, that replaces the resources my body burned yesterday. My breakfast this morning was not free. I had to work for it.

And I had to work for a computer, and an Internet connection, and a steady supply of electricity.

Nothing about what I'm sharing with you is free. I, and others, have had to work very hard, for many years, to make this moment possible.

You think things are free just because you don't pay for them? How about this: You give me your dinner... for free.

There are no greater wealth than knowledge.

So when are you going to pay me back?

 

[drkitten]

Ants will collect just enough food to survive. A lion will not kill 10 antelopes for sport, but one for food... Nature is closed ecosystem that we, humans, have made imbalanced.

And that, of course, is why no animals had ever gone extinct before humans existed. It was really a shame, too, when they announced last week that we humans had killed the last tyrannosaur.

 

[Zerror]

Really? Really? For free? Are you sure?

Yes, I am sure. You have a vast databases of info on every topic on the internet.

So. Are you going to pay for my "free" education? Am I going to get my education without anybody having to do any work at all? How does this "free education" thing work, in your mind?

You have a point here. In a society as we know it today. but that was explained in previous pages...

No. Just... NO.

In order to think clearly, I need a good night's rest, sheltered from the elements. That shelter was not free. I had to work hard, to get that shelter.

And I also need food in my belly. Something nutritious, that replaces the resources my body burned yesterday. My breakfast this morning was not free. I had to work for it.

And I had to work for a computer, and an Internet connection, and a steady supply of electricity.

Nothing about what I'm sharing with you is free. I, and others, have had to work very hard, for many years, to make this moment possible.

You think things are free just because you don't pay for them? How about this: You give me your dinner... for free.

Don't you feel good when you give something for free, when you do some charity, when you learn someone something he/she didn't know?

So when are you going to pay me back?

I have already paid you

And that, of course, is why no animals had ever gone extinct before humans existed. It was really a shame, too, when they announced last week that we humans had killed the last tyrannosaur.

deliberately? as a consequence of human action? Go to Amazon and ask rainforest's wildlife, if they are still there...

 

[Chaos]

Yes, I am sure. You have a vast databases of info on every topic on the internet.

And you think that stuff just popped into existence because somebody waved a magic wand? Or was it, perhaps, that people worked hard to create this stuff?

You have a point here. In a society as we know it today. but that was explained in previous pages...

As was explained in previous pages, handwaving and wishful thinking are no substitute for hard work. In society as we know it today, and in all other societies sane people can come up with.

Don't you feel good when you give something for free, when you do some charity, when you learn someone something he/she didn't know?

Feeling good doesn´t feed him or clothe him or get him some shelter.

I have already paid you

Not you didn´t . You didn´t even pay attention.

deliberately? as a consequence of human action? Go to Amazon and ask rainforest's wildlife, if they are still there...

Now you´re deliberately being obtuse. Or are you really so ignorant as to not realize that species can go extinct for reasons not related to humans?

 

[theprestige]

Yes, I am sure. You have a vast databases of info on every topic on the internet.

I work with Internet info databases every day. It costs a lot to make them available. The electricity cost alone is incredible. Then there's the cost of training and sustaining all the skilled workers needed to keep these databases functional and available. Not to mention all the costs involved in getting you connected to the Internet. Do you think the computer you're using is free? These databases are definitely not free.

You have a point here. In a society as we know it today. but that was explained in previous pages...

No, it wasn't explained in previous pages. Education costs work. Somebody has to do the work. Somebody has to pay the cost. Please explain how you expect the cost to be paid. Magical robots?

Don't you feel good when you give something for free, when you do some charity, when you learn someone something he/she didn't know?

I feel great when I do these things. But feeling good doesn't put food in my belly, or clothes on my body, or shelter over my head. Feeling good doesn't put knowledge in my brain. The only way to get these things is by hard work. Who's going to do that hard work? You?

Your idea of "free" seems to be that somebody else does all the hard work, and you get all the benefits.

I have already paid you

Really? What payment have I received from you? Where's the food you have put in my belly? Where's the shelter you have built over my head? What hard work have you done on my behalf?

ETA: Ninja'd by Chaos... whoa.

 

[Chaos]

ETA: Ninja'd by Chaos... whoa.

Not just great minds think alike, I suppose.

 

[Travis]

Things like Wikipedia work because there are lots of knowledgeable people who are able to dispense that as an indulgence. They, however, have put themselves into that position by getting educated, which costs money, and putting in a lot of hard work, which cost someone else a lot of money.

Put all the wiki editors out of work and see how their contributions vanish.

 

[corplinx]

Ants will collect just enough food to survive. A lion will not kill 10 antelopes for sport, but one for food... Nature is closed ecosystem that we, humans, have made imbalanced.

Animals kill each other all the time for purposes other than eating. If you believe animals never kill for sport, you definitely never had an outdoor cat.

 

[Prometheus]

Animals kill each other all the time for purposes other than eating. If you believe animals never kill for sport, you definitely never had an outdoor cat.

True. A male leopard will kill cubs in order to induce their mother to become sexually available to him.

 

[Chaos]

True. A male leopard will kill cubs in order to induce their mother to become sexually available to him.

Same with lions.

One hell of a pick-up line,eh? "Hey, sweetie, I just killed your kids. Wanna have sex?"

 

[J. Wellington Wimpy]

Actually, you know what? Let me guess:

You're relatively young, relatively unskilled, relatively uneducated, and relatively inexperienced. You may also be either relatively untalented, or else have stumbled into a job which doesn't make use of whatever your talents are.

So you look around, and you see a lot of people who are profiting from their skills, their education, their experience, and their talents. All of which are things that take lots of effort and lots of time to develop. Effort which you have not yet made, and time which you have not yet spent. And based on the effort and time put into these things, they are highly valued, and rightly so. They are valued by the people who have them. And they are valued by the people that benefit from their application.

You, having very little of these things, find that your application of them is not very highly valued. This is, I think as it should be.

But you disagree. You think there's a problem, and you think you have the perfect solution:

Other people--people who have invested the time and effort to develop these things--will build for you a Better Tomorrow. A Tomorrow where you will be greatly rewarded regardless of how skilful, how educated, how experienced, or how talented you are.

You don't want to put in the long, painful hours of training your mind or body to master a task or idea? No problem--other people will do it for you.

You don't want to put in the long, painful hours to learn a complex subject or master a difficult field of inquiry? No problem--other people will do it for you.

You don't want to wait for years and years for your experiences to build up, and your wisdom and insight to grow with them? No problem--other people's experience will serve you just as well.

You don't have a talent anybody else wants to reward you for? No problem--they'll go ahead and reward you anyway. In fact, all along the way, you'll reap the rich rewards of other people's work, other people's experience, other people's talent. All without ever having to develop any of your own.

And in order to escape the obvious, sickening unfairness of such a system, The Venus Project handwaves in a bunch of magical robots and computers that will do all the work for you, so you don't even have to worry about leeching off the efforts of others...

... Except, of course, that you still do: Who will design and build the computers? Other people, not you. Who will maintain and repair the robots? Other people, not you. Oh, I know, it's actually going to be robots all the way down. And until that day, who will keep moving things forward? Other people, not you.

Meanwhile, here in the real world, other people, not you, are hard at work, developing our skills, educating ourselves, gaining experience, and exercising our natural talents. We're busy designing computers, and building robots, and developing more efficient processes, and ten thousand other clever and innovative things, because we all want a Better Tomorrow for ourselves.

That's all "profit" is to any of us: A Better Tomorrow. A Tomorrow where our hard work pays off. A Tomorrow where we can spend more time with our families. A Tomorrow with less pollution in it. A Tomorrow with an ocean-going yacht, or a trip to the ISS, or a jumbo-sized popcorn and a summer blockbuster movie, or an Alpine skiing trip, or an Olympic gold medal, or any one of the ten thousand things that actually motivate us, beyond mere survival.

And the thing is, we're all putting in the work ourselves, because we know that other people aren't going to do it for us. Nor should they.

If the people running TVP are willing to do all that for you, while you do nothing, more fool them, and good luck to you. And if you think the problem's going to be solved by magical robots and computers, I can promise you one thing for sure: We real-world types will develop those computers and robots long before TVP ever does.

Why wait for TVP to "raise awareness" and "make a movie", and build a "theme park"? You don't need any of that. All you need is a degree from MIT, and you'll be well on your way to making your own Better Tomorrow.

So very, VERY nominated!

 

[lightfire22000]

I saw that documentary. The parts that were original were often erroneous. Other reliable people have also called NASA to confirm that the documentary's astronomy was wrong too. And that thing about how Christianity was a solar faith and Jesus was the "son" and the "sun", that's only true in the English language as far as I know. I think they got that from an old episode of Star Trek.

What is the Zeitgeist Movement exactly?

 

[Ysidro]

You know, with all this talk about ants I'm thinking someone read "The Ant and The Grasshopper" and took the wrong lesson from it.

 

[Travis]

You know, with all this talk about ants I'm thinking someone read "The Ant and The Grasshopper" and took the wrong lesson from it.

It wasn't supposed to make us wage merciless genocide on ants in the name of the misunderstood grasshopper?

 

[Prometheus]

It wasn't supposed to make us wage merciless genocide on ants in the name of the misunderstood grasshopper?

Actually, they're both pretty tasty dipped in chocolate.

 

[Ambrosia]

I've skimmed this thread - apologies if this has been raised already.

It seems that proponents of the ZM want to usher in a new utopian society, but never seem to offer any practical thoughts/ideas on how we go about actually making any of it ever work.

I think it is criminal that we live in a world where the vast majority of the population, through accident of birth, live in poverty, while us lucky few live in excess.

One of the mantras of recent political campaigns was "Education Education Education" - make sure everyone in the country gets a good education, and that countries talent will, in time, repay the money spent on that education by doing work in that country thats highly valued and well paid for,or by inventing the next big thing etc.

I wonder how many new Teslas have been lost to our collective knowledge, simply cos they were born in the wrong place at the wrong time for example.

Here's my idea for something practical we can do to take a baby step perhaps towards a more utopian world.

The UN (or some other similar organisation) taxes each country whose living standards are up to some agreed level. A small % that could be saved out of each countries "defense" budget. The money is pooled and used to run a "red cross" type of organisation, run as non profit, tasked with providing every person with a minimum standard of living, food/shelter/clean water/training in agriculture.

Countries could alternatively provide personnel and equipment instead of just money to some huge pot.

all such assitance to be given freely with no poor country every having to repay money in the future.

We the rich countries gain in the long term because less new "Teslas" slip through the cracks and we all gain from an increase in scientific knowledge and understanding and more productive higher skilled people.

Is this or anything like this ever possible?