The Zeitgeist Movement... why not?

Menthol, yes I did read what you said and considered it.

Unless you have been to different colleges and listened in on different people having meetings about zeitgeist, asked them what they are majoring in, which seems very unlikely seeing as you're not interested in it at all, then it's bogus. Even people who are interested are having trouble meeting up at the moment. If you have done that, then okie dokie, my bad.

Don't be so defensive I'm not your enemy :)

No you moved the goal posts because you are embarassed that I called you on your failed attempt at a gotcha statement.

Let it go,...LEARN TO USE THE QUOTE FEATURE...., and move on.
 
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Ok, I failed at a gotcha statement (gutted by the way) and I moved the goal posts, whatever.
 
Ok, I failed at a gotcha statement (gutted by the way) and I moved the goal posts, whatever.
Moving the goal posts isn't "whatever". It indicates that you're not thinking very hard about what you believe, or you're not taking it very seriously, or that you're intentionally arguing in bad faith.

None of these things help your case at all. If you want to raise awareness and convince people of your ideas, then you should probably avoid moving the goal posts as much as possible. Well, avoid it completely, really.
 
Just don't want to make an issue of a non issue.

I did not move the goal posts, I explained why I said, what I said.
 
Absolutely, evolution. It's just lagging a hell of a lot at the moment. A RBE is evolution.

No it isn't. TVP is a designed system, there is a "problem" so someone has designed a "solution". What currently exists happened because it worked, many different systems have been tried and this is what, so far, has worked the best for people (broadly speaking, of course).

TVP (or 'federation' socialism, as I like to call it) relies on everyone playing the game, and we just aren't that homogeneous.
 
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For example, Fresco claims that the "carrying capacity" of the Earth is sufficient to provide everyone with everything they want. At the very least, this claim requires some sort of accounting of the average supply/demand of all resources, including the amount of work/energy/resources needed to move them from where they are to wherever they're needed.

> Yes, good point. Fresco does claim that this but he also says a global survey of the worlds resources needs to be done, but this cannot be achieved until there is enough awareness and enough people support this direction. All the money spent on WW2, that is in combination with all nations, was enough to build schools and medical care for everyone, worldwide.

In other words, there is no rational reason to believe that his ideas will work.

As for the plans, I'm sure you can respect the fact that the movement is in it's infancy. First step is awareness and the motion picture which isn't due til 2010.

This is the single biggest problem I have with TVP, and it's the primary reason why it is so easy to assume that Fresco is either a raving lunatic, or a skilled con man (perhaps both). The real world just doesn't work that way. Try to name any other problem that has ever been solved by making a movie first. Fresco claims that TVP is to be science based. If that's true, then the first step is to do actual science, not make sci-fi movies, or pretty pictures, or theme parks.

> Again, good point. To be fair, film and cinema have not been around very long, and if you don't have awareness and enough people supporting the direction then well, it's not going to work. As for the science side of things, Fresco has been inventing, researching and studying science his entire life. He has many, many designs, many have already been tested successfully. He's now 93 years old and he still makes a huge commitment to this movement, still designing, giving lectures, participating in radio broadcasts, so to call him a con-man is unfounded. Those pretty pictures are not just pretty pictures, Jacque has detailed plans and schematics for each and every one of them.

Yeah, so he says. I'm still waiting for some evidence.

Inventions and Designs

* Systems for noiseless and pollution free aircraft
* A new aircraft wing structural system, patented by the US Air Force
* An electrostatic system for the elimination of sonic boom for Raymond DeIcer
* Boundary layer control and electrodynamic methods for aircraft control that dispenses with ailerons, elevators, rudders, and flaps
* A three-wheel automobile consisting of only 32 parts
* “The Aluminum Trend House,” a prefabricated house designed and developed for Mike Shore and Earl Muntz, 1945
* Designed and developed another prefabricated aluminum house for Major Realty Corporation in collaboration with Aluminum Company of America
* Developed numerous components and systems for architectural construction
* Developed equipment ranging from 3-dimensional x-ray units to electronic surgical instruments for the medical field
* Developed a technique for viewing 3-dimensional motion pictures without the use of glasses
* Designed and built a wide variety of reinforced concrete structures.

Yeah, I've read Fresco's resume also. The only thing I learned from it is that he doesn't know how to write a proper resume. Please tell me you don't actually believe this list constitutes evidence of anything relevant to this discussion. To be honest, it reads more like the table of contents of Wacky Patents than anything else.
 
So I went through and read the Venus Project website. I had been avoiding it. And I would like to apologize because I judged this project before reading all about it. Once I got on the website and read all these plans and so forth I was floored....by who stupid it all is. There is nothing on there that actually is a realistic plan for anything. My opinions were confirmed by reading talk of technology that is decades away, and will never be developed without a system of capital.

And a theme park? A motion picture? These people are dreaming.

EDIT: I mean if I wanted to play this game all I would have to do is go to the next Star Trek convention, but the difference is at least I could discuss creative ideas with them. Meaning a Star Trek convention would be more productive than meeting up with VP supporters.
 
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I've avoided the website but I watched the 97 minute introduction video and was less than impressed. It made some strange allegations such as that all technology is designed to be flawed by companies who want you to buy more and with promises to create things that are built to last forever.

Uh huh.

It also claimed that all war would end when we eliminate governments. Really.
 
>That's insane, how ironic is that in view of the monetary system, it's because of the monetary thousands of kids, adults are being sold for sex all over the world. To somehow suggest TVP could possibly, somehow make it worse I find just absurd.

That is interesting. And here I thought humans were sexual and perverse by nature, but I guess it was adopting a means of exchange which actually corrupted us. I guess that explains the drastically lower reports of rape in the animal kingdom, as compared to human societies shackled by currency.:rolleyes:
 
I've avoided the website but I watched the 97 minute introduction video and was less than impressed. It made some strange allegations such as that all technology is designed to be flawed by companies who want you to buy more and with promises to create things that are built to last forever.

Yeah that one is a doozy, isn't it? This idea that technology could be designed and built perfect the first time. Because we all know that those first computers were designed to fail, the whole time they were just holding back technology 100% better than what we have now. :rolleyes:



It also claimed that all war would end when we eliminate governments. Really.

Of course. Everyone knows that when governments break down that people develop egalitarian societies. I mean after hurricane Katrina it was just a paradise on earth, until the big bad evil government came in. ;)
 
Yeah that one is a doozy, isn't it? This idea that technology could be designed and built perfect the first time. Because we all know that those first computers were designed to fail, the whole time they were just holding back technology 100% better than what we have now. :rolleyes:

Of course. Everyone knows that when governments break down that people develop egalitarian societies. I mean after hurricane Katrina it was just a paradise on earth, until the big bad evil government came in. ;)
Well if you start with a false premise as the foundation for your entire philosophical movement, why not go all the way?
 
Yeah that one is a doozy, isn't it? This idea that technology could be designed and built perfect the first time. Because we all know that those first computers were designed to fail, the whole time they were just holding back technology 100% better than what we have now. :rolleyes:

A big part of technological lifespans is the materials involved. Promising that everything will be built to last a very long time is essentially promising to use rare, and today expensive, materials for everything. This does not bode well for what is being advertised as a "sustainable" means of doing things.



Of course. Everyone knows that when governments break down that people develop egalitarian societies. I mean after hurricane Katrina it was just a paradise on earth, until the big bad evil government came in. ;)

Well, Pickles just said that all you have to do is drop people into a Resource Based Economy and suddenly everyone loves their neighbors and works for the good of everyone just because. Surely this isn't naive and baseless.:rolleyes:
 
Just don't want to make an issue of a non issue.

I did not move the goal posts, I explained why I said, what I said.

While that's a wise path to follow, don't you realize that the Zeitgeist Movement is turning an issue into a non-issue? Certainly, many people agree there are problems with the modern socioeconomic paradigm, many people agree there are countless examples of needless suffering throughout the world. But, is it not merely an insult to these helpless victims to ignore the reality of their problems and say they'll be fixed with the implementation of the RBE?

You realize that there are major problems in the world! Things can and should be done to solve them! The problem is that speculating about a radical restructuring of society, which you and many other proponents have reluctantly acknowledged has a number of lofty fundamental principles, DOES NOTHING TO SOLVE THE PROBLEMS.

Putting your faith in the technology to develop itself "eventually" does nothing to help the people who are suffering now. Instead of emotionally charging the catchphrases of this movement (which is taking full advantage of the capitalist culture), realize that until you or TVP suggests the numbers required to commence a transition, until TVP can prove itself, you're as guilty as every other citizen on the sidelines, regardless of their ideology.

Also, I'm certain this has been addressed before, but it's rather fundamental and deserves to be reiterated: economic scarcity is the result of the conflict between unlimited human desires and finite availability of resources. Unless Fresco and Joseph are equivocating this with another concept of scarcity, it is essential for them to show a falsification of it:

The earth is finite. Regardless of assertions about the abundance of resources, a finite earth immediately conflicts with the suggestion of infinite desires of humans. Ergo, TVP should be focused on providing proof that human desire is inherently finite. Propositions that the change in society will result in the assumed change in desire need to be proven, but keep in mind that suggesting peoples' desires can be changed otherwise is generally understood to be indoctrination and therefore adds a number of ethical quandaries to the list of things TVP needs to address.
 
You realize that there are major problems in the world! Things can and should be done to solve them! The problem is that speculating about a radical restructuring of society, which you and many other proponents have reluctantly acknowledged has a number of lofty fundamental principles, DOES NOTHING TO SOLVE THE PROBLEMS.

This is why I asked how the Venus Project would deal with the atrocities in Darfur. Simply instituting a new economic system does not mean that problems of old, in this case massacring people because of their ethnicity and religion, will go away. A death squad in Sudan or Chad is simply not going to care a bunch of people in the USA are now living in communes and those communes won't protect their intended victims either.

The earth is finite. Regardless of assertions about the abundance of resources, a finite earth immediately conflicts with the suggestion of infinite desires of humans. Ergo, TVP should be focused on providing proof that human desire is inherently finite. Propositions that the change in society will result in the assumed change in desire need to be proven, but keep in mind that suggesting peoples' desires can be changed otherwise is generally understood to be indoctrination and therefore adds a number of ethical quandaries to the list of things TVP needs to address.

Exactly. I addressed this in my review of the Intro Film in another thread:

The video asks "why not build things out of the best materials available?"
It then asks " why not design things so they'll last a hundred years?"

Hmm, let's see. Is all material equally available for all things?
No.
It might be nice to build houses out of pure titanium but titanium is not available in quantities sufficient to supply such an endeavor. I'm wondering if that might have something to do with why we build houses out of cheaper wood instead?:rolleyes:

By not recognizing that there is a link between affordability and resource availability this project is setting itself up to fail. By pretending that the only thing limiting the lifespan of produced goods is a lack of desire to manufacture better products the project is preying on the engineering naivete of its intended audience.
 
In addition, remember the implications of technology and science's role in TVP. "The scientific method" applied to every-day problems, the general direction of society to be influenced by autonomous computers who make society's decisions.

I mentioned in a post a number of pages back that if computers or software can't accurately simulate the function of human brains, they can't adequately determine the priorities of the humans in society. So, foremost - until such spectacular technology exists where all industrial, administrative, and political roles of man can be sufficiently replaced with technology, no part of an orthodox TVP society can exist.

And if the technology is developed to simulate human thought, its purpose will be to deal with the monotonous decisions required to guide society, correct? Well, this technology will be responsible for major decisions. The best choices are well informed. Presumably there's a thorough and elaborate sensory system which feeds accurate information to the decision-maker. But can this be done without invading the privacy of the individual?

Even further, consider the moral predicaments that might show up. Now, I don't subscribe to absolute relativism, however I think that beyond some fundamental "golden-rule"esque points, a complete and unified morality isn't possible for an entire society. Humans have never come close to accepting large-scale moral standards before, and if they can't agree with each other, how will they ever come to agree with a machine?

Well, obviously it's a machine. And remember, computers aren't sentient! Laptops don't cry when you smash other laptops! Surely, everyone will trust a rational machine to make the best decisions for everyone...

Which brings forth a critical caveat - the decisions computers would have to make are of a broad sociopolitical nature, the same cultural and macroeconomic issues which happen in any society. These decisions are always analyzed and dealt with using a consequential / utilitarian reasoning process: considering the benefit relative to the cost (and cost is not necessarily any form of money or capital.)

Surely most people are familiar with the hang-ups that arise from pure utilitarian philosophy. So, with the decision-making technology equipped to manage or guide society, is the best choice for it to behave in a purely rational manner? What if a small group of citizens having special needs, loud opinions, or persistent criminal actions become burdens on society? What if the overall satisfaction of 95% of the population could be doubled with the elimination of that dreadful 5%? Would it not be the rational path to purge the cultural burden?

I would trust the reasoning process in the computers could be calibrated to avoid those scenarios or otherwise behave gently in them, but then they might become inconsistent which then defeats their purpose. And what if there are citizens who vehemently oppose decisions the computer makes? Maybe I need to anticipate a massive paradigm shift and new age unification of consciousness, but even at superficial levels this technological system looks like it's going to complicate the very process which it's intended to simplify.

Well, I suppose I've gotten carried away with the fun of speculative fantasy here, and maybe that's the very appeal of TVP. I hope I've composed a post that's at least understandable. Anyway, for the TVP fanbois who surf the web for new recruits to the Movement, all I wanted to exemplify is the importance of Carl Sagan's maxim: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

The extraordinary claim in question is the favorability of a shift to a society based off Zeitgeist / the Venus Project. Quantified predictions and statements of intention are the first steps TVP needs to take in offering evidence. However, they also need to understand that civilization is far more complicated than it might appear from the peanut gallery, which also means that shifting to a communal RBE society will also create new problems. If supporters aren't willing to believe in the fallibility of this system then they're weakening Fresco's claim that TVP isn't a utopia.

So anyway, I try to be objective, but obviously I've reached some conclusions. If anything I've stated is wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I'm alive to learn.
 
Good post, those are all issues that I, and others, have with this idea. It's just too simplistic to expect that we can use one model to come to conclusions on how to deal with complex issues. I will repeat some of my issues with this and questions on how it is supposed to work:

  • Do we just go to the master computer and input data and it tells us how to get rid of serial killers once and for all?
  • Who programmed this master computer and how do we know it wasn't programmed with the biases of the programmer?
  • If, instead, this all done by a committee then who is on the committee and what authority would their recommendations command?
  • How is dissent from such decisions handled?
  • If all decisions are arrived at by scientific experimentation then how are such experiments, say on how to eliminate rapist pedophiles, performed? What ethical constraints are there on their experiments?

In addition Miss Kitt had an awesome post in the other thread on this:

The scientific method is a way of testing how well certain hypotheses explain what happens in reality. Its primary test of validity of concepts is, Does this concept/theory produce valid predictions? (Does it do so consistently, when tested by multiple different testers? One-offs don't count as "valid".) Science is good at finding ways to describe what is going on.

The scientific method, however, is completely useless in the realm of value judgments. The classic way of expressing this is, "An 'is' does not imply an 'ought'." Scientific testing can determine which chemotherapy drugs are most effective in slowing the advancement of pancreatic cancer; but it is useless in deciding when a patient who is terminal should move from aggressive to palliative care. Even if you put scientific-sounding phrases like, "unbiased and more accurate" on the decision, it's still a value judgment.

Some people don't want to survive in a hospital bed, so doped up they can't tell day from night half the time, without the ability to walk, talk with their friends and family, play with their dog, or pursue their chosen profession. Others will fight for every single day, treasuring each moment they can think and experience Life--even if that life is edged with pain. Some will set a certain milepost they wish to achieve, like seeing a loved one graduate or get married, and then want to move on. Some will want to trade off between amount of discomfort and length of life. And so on.

Science does not, and cannot, say which of these positions is right. All values are defined within a context of, "To whom? At what cost? Under what conditions?" (And, whether that cost is measured in dollars or man-hours or the opportunity cost of what else could have been done with the resources involved, there is always a cost.) Patients who value their quality of life over their length of life are entitled to feel that way; but the patient who wants to live to see their child graduate is equally entitled to their perspective. There is no way of 'scientifically' differentiating between the two. It's a matter of their respective values.

No matter what the computer's program does to make decisions, there will still be value standards present, at least implicitly, in its criteria. If the standard of the Medical Resource Allocation program is, "Maximize lifespan until age 70" but also, "Do not use hospital resources for a shorter-projected lifespan patient if a longer-span patient needs them," then the arrival of a traffic-collision or appendicitis case in an otherwise-healthy 24-year-old will bump the cancer patient out. Since resources on the planet are finite, there will always be scarcity of some kind. Scarcity in fields where a great deal of knowledge is one of the resources is even more common. (That's why doctors and virtuoso violinists are highly-rewarded: There is more demand for their knowledge and ability than there is supply.)

Let's go even further away from the evidence-based treatments and outcomes, and raise another question: Should this space between buildings be used for lawn, garden, or a fountain? There is no scientific answer to that question. There are preferences, that vary per individual involved, and often their current/recent experience.

For example: I have a big lawn, because I have an active 9-year-old. As soon as she outgrows the run-around phase, we'll replace some of the lawn with a larger patio and a hot-tub (yes!!) that will be of greater use to my husband and me. If, in the meantime, we acquire a large dog we may opt to keep more lawnspace for the dog's benefit. None of these are arbitrary decisions; but they are value-driven, not "scientifically" determined. Science can tell you that having some kind of natural feature in your environment for daily interaction is healthy--that's why cities need parks and planter strips and windowboxes--but whether it's majority grass or a rock garden with shrubs and flowering grasses is a matter of preference.

The assertion that there are "scientific" ways of valuing is, quite simply, wrong. It is possible (in many cases) to map out rationally the most efficient ways to implement certain values once they have been selected; but there is no scientific way to decide whether jazz or Mozart should be taught to a clarinetist. There is only preference.

The central virtue of an individualist, monetary-based system is that it lets each person demonstrate their values by where they spend their money. If more people pay to hear jazz than Mozart, the classical fans will have to spend more per seat to support their interest. And as long as they are willing to pay enough, their symphony will stay in business. Musicians who dearly love a particular style of music will accept a lower income to play that, deciding that the pleasure they experience practicing and performing it compensates them for the things they aren't buying because of that lower income. Others may think that being a musician is what's important, and they will play the style that provides them with the most discretionary spending. Still others may decide that they will make music a hobby, because their preferred standard of living is not supportable on a musician's salary. Each makes their own choice, based on their own values.

Once you start spouting vaguaries of "technical and scientific perspective" you are trying to disguise the reality that some people will be "the deciders" and will enforce their decisions on everyone else. The only system that does not do that is one where people can directly demonstrate their preferences: That is called a "market".

Just my thoughts, Miss Kitt

What this all comes back to is that some people have a hard time understanding that optimizing a small closed community of educated and skilled volunteers is way different from reorganizing all of human society with loads of illiterate, unskilled people who might not want a computer telling them where they can live, who they can marry and so on. Think of it as the difference between a camping trip with experienced explorers and overseeing a refugee camp with a million people in a regions rife with disease and war.
 
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How will TVP mainframe computer deal with scarcity? How will it compensate for those things that are not in the plan? In the event of a famine, how would it decide who gets fed. If we are going to run by a computer ruling us through some "scientific process" than at what point does efficiency out weight human life? It is an honest question, and it is something that I wonder. TVP proponents keep writing about how it will be free of self interest and geared towards the greater good. So at what point does the system decide that the mentally disabled cannot contribute to the good of society? At what point is it decided that past a certain age you are merely a burden on the society?

My questions may be on the more extreme side, but this is because of the nature of what is being promoted. I am taken back by this notion that the resources and productivity of the global output is like a continuous straight line, uninterrupted. Scarcity will always take place if not for the simple reason that a computer nor a human can reach even close to a 100% prediction rate with all the variables around us. Hence, even if you can get to a 95% prediction rate, you will always fall to predict the right planting cycle, the rain that year, a pestilence, a famine, an infestation. You will end up with scarcity, and history has shown that planned economies (especially because they already ration their people's consumption) do not deal well with events outside their predictive models.

These issues are not answered by TVP, and are simply dismissed as something that wouldn't happen in their system. It is ignored, and the proponents that have come into this thread, recycling the same talking points have always given the non-answer of "go to the website, read his book, watch the movie". Well it isn't answered, it is ignored.

TVP is problematic because it assumes that only the system is to blame for all problems. The assumption is that people will basically hold hands and sing in a circle all day if you remove some shadowy oppressor. Fundamentally it denies human nature, which I will get to, and believes that basically people will avoid anti-societal behaviors if not for the system. In many respects this actually reminds me of the purist laissez fair argument, which ignores that real threat of monopolistic power in a capitalist society without government intervention when needed.

On the human nature issue. It is ignored, and I have argued that earlier in the thread. There are observable behaviors that appear regardless of culture, and regardless of conditioning. TVP seems to be, in my observation, working from old and now discredited models that argued such ideas that gender was learned. We have since found that even in households that attempt to raise gender neutral children, that boys still exhibit behavior associated with males, and girls still exhibit female behavior. We know that small groups will exhibit social stratification even when there is no profit motive, because there are personality archetypes that arise. You always have a leader, you always have a peacemaker, you always was a dissenter...etc. I blame the bad use of terminology for the notion that "all behavior can be changed", because it simply isn't true. You may argue that learned behavior could be changed, but the behaviors I listed are cross cultural, and seemingly fundamental to human society. Take gender, even with the variance seen in different cultures there are still fundamental things that hold true. The fact may be that these behaviors serve an evolutionary purpose as part of society.

I don't know. The whole VP seems like people just talking about scientific principles without knowing them. It also seems like there is a lack of understanding about psychology going on here, with a specific lack of knowledge in the realm of inter-personal communication and organizational communication.

I apologize for the massive rant, I just needed to get that out.
 
How will TVP mainframe computer deal with scarcity? How will it compensate for those things that are not in the plan? In the event of a famine, how would it decide who gets fed. If we are going to run by a computer ruling us through some "scientific process" than at what point does efficiency out weight human life? It is an honest question, and it is something that I wonder. TVP proponents keep writing about how it will be free of self interest and geared towards the greater good. So at what point does the system decide that the mentally disabled cannot contribute to the good of society? At what point is it decided that past a certain age you are merely a burden on the society?
From my understanding of a VP scenario computer systems would only be running resources. It would be handling how much resources are available like water. It would monitor air conditions, food amounts etc. Then it would try to solve the issue when it came up. Only us humans would be concerned with humans. The computer system would only deal with inventory and environment status. Keep in mind that many of the human problems we have now would not exists because a medium of exchange would not exist. Scarcity would be minimal so crime would be minimal. That’s the idea anyway.

My questions may be on the more extreme side, but this is because of the nature of what is being promoted. I am taken back by this notion that the resources and productivity of the global output is like a continuous straight line, uninterrupted. Scarcity will always take place if not for the simple reason that a computer nor a human can reach even close to a 100% prediction rate with all the variables around us. Hence, even if you can get to a 95% prediction rate, you will always fall to predict the right planting cycle, the rain that year, a pestilence, a famine, an infestation. You will end up with scarcity, and history has shown that planned economies (especially because they already ration their people's consumption) do not deal well with events outside their predictive models.
Why not solve those particular problems of weather and pesticides with hydroponics?

TVP is problematic because it assumes that only the system is to blame for all problems.
Well, a monetary system is the cause of most of the worlds social issues...
The assumption is that people will basically hold hands and sing in a circle all day
I can think of way better things to do with my time besides sing if I didn’t have to immerse myself in drudgery 40 + hours a week.
if you remove some shadowy oppressor.
There is no shadowy oppressor. Money is the motivation for the oppression you speak of and its done out in the open. No shadowy oppressor exists here. If you remove people more will take their place. Its not evil people because evil does not exist. It's the power motivation brought on by the monetary system.
We have since found that even in households that attempt to raise gender neutral children, that boys still exhibit behavior associated with males, and girls still exhibit female behavior.
And sometimes boys act like girls and girls act like boys. I agree that males tend to act in one way and girls in another and that’s hard wired to a degree but we are not the way we are because it has been predetermined by genetics. It’s mostly through experience. That’s not a old, outmoded idea.
We know that small groups will exhibit social stratification even when there is no profit motive, because there are personality archetypes that arise. You always have a leader, you always have a peacemaker, you always was a dissenter...etc.
Always?
 

Yes, near always. Funny how people operate in a predictable manner like that isn't it? As for the rest of your stuff. Well it is the same hand waving from the rest of the thread which doesn't answer anything. Hydroponics wouldn't prevent disease from effecting plants, and there would still be supply issues. And weather can still effect the infrastructure. That and your notions about human nature are outdated and contradicted by the modern literature, after years of experimentation to prove it, it failed to show that many of these things are taught. I challenge you to look to the psychological, sociological and communications literature.

To the VP, I will present a counterpoint as intelligent and valid as anything seen in Zeitgeist.

 
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