The Zeitgeist Movement... why not?

petrarch1603 said:
Mr Mix, you should check out the book Walden Two by BF Skinner. It is a fictionalized idealized cashless community. The book has inspired people to create their own cashless community. If you are so passionate about eschewing capitalism, you should try to live in one. More info at wikipedia (search "Twin Oaks Community").
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This highlights how little you understand what it is we're talking about here.
 
fullflavormenthol said:
Well lets see. So what is being written is that a high tech future society doesn't need specialized knowledge because it is high tech? This really doesn't make logical sense. The fact that anyone of the proposed mechanisms requires specialized knowledge should be obvious to must people. Also I love how the flaw in the AI was simply ignored. You know the one that deals with fundamental chaos in any deterministic system.

I also completely love the hand waving of the Austrian school of economic thought, because it is old. Well it is pretty accurate actually, and people of this economic school were able to notice that the economy would go in this direction. Not because of "evil capitalism", but because of manipulations of the system.

So what have we established here....

1.) Human competition cannot be eliminated.
2.) Social Stratification cannot be eliminated.
3.) The elimination of "money" does not remove resource costs.
4.) These resource costs still make much of the sci-fi tech of the Venus Project far out of the reach of human society, until they become cost effective.
5.) Specialization is necessary the more advanced a society is, and by eliminating it; progress will stagnate.
6.) Fundamental chaos within deterministic systems makes an AI running an entire society both impractical, and doomed to catastrophic failure.

Anyone else have some we can throw unto the list?
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Ya I got one...

7.)fullflavormenthol is afraid of AI taking over the world;)
 
Prometheus said:
What is it about TVP that makes you think it possibly could work?
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I figure we'll need to try something fresh and something a little more in line with sustainability if expect the next generation to have anything for themselves.
 
Mr_Mix said:
I figure we'll need to try something fresh and something a little more in line with sustainability if expect the next generation to have anything for themselves.
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I guess I missed the part where TVP actually demonstrated any evidence of any kind that they have any idea at all how to be, "a little more in line with sustainability."
 
I can't believe this is still being debated.


I'm curious as to what these "false wants" are that I keep hearing about. How are they false? How does one distinguish them from a "genuine" want?


Furthermore how does one prevent the over-consumption of limited, but necessary resources in this world where everything you want is provided? Suppose someone wants a statue made of pure platinum that is 4000 meters high and 500 meters in diameter, does anyone step in to stop it? What if someone wants a large lake filled with the worlds supply of insulin?

Another thing I have yet to hear addressed are things like sex and the neurosis/crimes associated with it.
 
Mr_Mix said:
Ya I got one...

7.)fullflavormenthol is afraid of AI taking over the world;)
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Nice ad hom to avoid any of the legitimate issues. Wonderful.

I already stated that the issue of emergence was the weakest possible point, and it was brought up simply as a question. Also never once did I write nor imply a fear of AI taking over the world. So despite being an ad hom, it is also a strawman argument.

1.) Human competition cannot be eliminated.
2.) Social Stratification cannot be eliminated.
3.) The elimination of "money" does not remove resource costs.
4.) These resource costs still make much of the sci-fi tech of the Venus Project far out of the reach of human society, until they become cost effective.
5.) Specialization is necessary the more advanced a society is, and by eliminating it; progress will stagnate.
6.) Fundamental chaos within deterministic systems makes an AI running an entire society both impractical, and doomed to catastrophic failure.
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Care to address any of these points? Or are you content to use personal attacks as your only means to "spread awareness"?
 
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Travis -
Well, I'm not really debating. Just chatting.
I don't think anyone would get whatever they wanted but everyone would get what they need plus a high standard of living in general.
Sex crimes are a product of our current environment and would not have a basis for existence in a RBE. Since a RBE has never existed before it’s hard to imagine how that would play out but you are using the only frame of reference you know which is the environment you have been raised in. That frame of reference has no relation to a RBE type society.
 
fullflavormenthol said:
Nice ad hom to avoid any of the legitimate issues. Wonderful.
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Thanks buddy. Why all the flattery? Are you gonna ask me for money or something?;)

Care to address any of these points?
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Yes. They are all false. You talk as if you actually did establish them as facts and of course, they are not facts at all.
 
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Mr_Mix said:
Travis -
Well, I'm not really debating. Just chatting.
I don't think anyone would get whatever they wanted but everyone would get what they need plus a high standard of living in general.
Sex crimes are a product of our current environment and would not have a basis for existence in a RBE. Since a RBE has never existed before it’s hard to imagine how that would play out but you are using the only frame of reference you know which is the environment you have been raised in. That frame of reference has no relation to a RBE type society.
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So you're just postulating that everything will be different, but you can't say how or why? What makes you think this RBE type society has any relation to reality?
 
Mr_Mix said:
This highlights how little you understand what it is we're talking about here.
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Explain yourself. I have followed this thread all the way from the beginning and you accuse me of not understanding it. I am familiar with prior literature about the ideas that you have been talking about and you accuse me of not understanding it? Enlighten me Mr. Mix.
 
Mr_Mix said:
Yes. They are all false. You talk as if you actually did establish them as facts and of course, they are not facts at all.
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How are they false? Simply justify why one of those points were false. I mean it should be really simple.

Oh, and yes it has been very much established that the 6 points I listed were true. This thread has established them as much, but given the overall intellectual level of your responses...making 5 posts in 10 minutes that don't actually address anything...I'm not going to hold my breath for an intelligent response from you.
 
An RBE will somehow eliminate sex crimes? I think this thread has now jumped the shark.
 
No the sharks will be replaced with robot sharks that perform all the functions of a real shark but are programmed to never attack humans.
 
Travis said:
An RBE will somehow eliminate sex crimes? I think this thread has now jumped the shark.
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Hehheh.
I think crimes, overalll, would reduce dramatically and that would include crimes of a sexual nature. It would seem that even sex crimes exsist because of the environment that the perpitrator is in. Sex crimes may always exsist no matter what social system we are in but I think environment has a lot to do with it. This environment is a unhealthy one so thats why there are so many mental issues with so many people.

Earlier in this thread I mentioned a book by Jaque Fresco. I order and read the book and it was pretty interesting stuff but there is also a newer PDF by Jaque Fresco that is free and has similiar information here.

Alos, the Zeitgeist Movement's Activist Orientaion Guide is out. Take a look if you like.

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/The Zeitgeist Movement.pdf
 
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petrarch1603 said:
Explain yourself. I have followed this thread all the way from the beginning and you accuse me of not understanding it. I am familiar with prior literature about the ideas that you have been talking about and you accuse me of not understanding it? Enlighten me Mr. Mix.
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What Twin Oaks is and what a RBE is are so different I dont know where to start!
 
The ZM is all about creating a better life for everyone. Sure, it is not perfect. Sure, a lot of things won't work. Sure, some things might be absurd.

But I believe it is even more absurd to continue to live in a society like ours. Sorry, let me correct that, I believe it is idiotic. www.storyofstuff.com (simply common sense, and no, I don't care if any of you can "debunk" this movie).

So, what if the ZM is not the right answer? It is a start. And sites like storyofstuff open the eyes of thousands to the idiocy of current system. Threads like this one might be just a seed, and this is all it needs to be.
 
Bodhi Dharma Zen said:
So, what if the ZM is not the right answer? It is a start. And sites like storyofstuff open the eyes of thousands to the idiocy of current system. Threads like this one might be just a seed, and this is all it needs to be.
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"Who cares what time we set the clock to? We know it's not showing the right time now, so what difference does it make?"
 
Let's put the TVP advocates in a room with the Anarcho Capitalist,lock the doors, and see what happens ....
 
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