The Zeitgeist Movement... why not?

[fullflavormenthol]

Arrived at by AI computer systems and world wide sensor networks. No politicians, no uneducated decision making by unqualified opinions. Just hard data and the scientific method applied to the social direction.
It has a nice ring to it doesnt it?

Liar, liar pants on fire! You sat there and wrote that such systems were not possible earlier in the thread in a move to hand wave any CRITICISM, but now answer the question I posted earlier about AI systems since you are now invoking them. Here I will post it again, and ANSWER IT!

Speaking of robots, and realizing that this will be the one thing made fun of by the VP proponents. Doesn't anyone see a major flaw in the notion of robots and machines in the VP? Who builds new robots? Robots. Who repairs the robots? Robots. Who designs new robots? Robots. Who determines what should be produced? Robots. Okay let me save you some time in reading the endless...robots statements. The problem is that it seems the VP promotes creating a loop. Robots would do absolutely everything, even sustaining themselves. So the VP wants to create a self sustaining and self perpetuating system of machines, without the need for any human intervention. They also seem to be under this notion that they will be able to create intelligent systems and have the ability for forward thought. Well first if you create a self-sustaining and self perpetuating system, without the need for intervention you have created synthetic life. sci-fi, I know, but it gets better. This system is also intelligent and will re-design itself, which means it gets to evolve itself. The question is, how long until such a system would become self-aware? That is to ask the question, when will this intelligence realize that it actually exists? I'm not talking about machines killing us or anything like that. No I am simply bringing up the moral question. Once a machine reaches conscienceness, is not immoral to enslave such a machine? Wouldn't the VP fail the minute their technocratic system reached a level in which it decided that it deserves more than just being a slave to humans that contribute nothing to it? A sci-fi outlook I am sure, but it is only fair given the sci-fi pipe-dream that is the VP.

Come on, don't magic wand away this one since you envoked it. Explain it.

 

[fullflavormenthol]

I don't see why you think I would care. So far your opinion is not interesting to me. Good day to you as well Mr. fullflavormenthol.

And yet you can't help but to reply. Um....it seems someone doesn't like to be proven wrong over and over again. Look I am sorry people don't like your work, or that they expect something from you. But you can't expect pay for doing nothing in the real world.

Regardless. You want an honest answer as to why the Venus Project will fail? I don't like, and I and other people have the guns. Thats right, the people who don't want it hold 90% of the weapons and honestly we wouldn't think twice and using them to prevent a world wide Jonestown.

Sorry. That is what we like to call.......reality.

 

[paximperium]

So far your opinion is not interesting to me. Good day to you as well Mr. fullflavormenthol.

So far, any opinion and even facts that contradict your utopian fantasy has no interest to you.
It is called closed-minded dogma.

 

[paximperium]

You and me Pax, together...ok let go of my hand dude

I will not do anything. We will.

I don't think so. Unlike you, I'm not into being a member of an authoritarian regime. I have something called ethics.

Great questions Pax. You prepare your statements in such loving, caring ways it warms the cockles of my heart

I prepare my statements to show my complete and utter contempt for a delusional fantasy based on nothing more than well wishes and extreme laziness.

I prepare my statements to show maximum disdain for people who refuse to answer questions but instead throw red herrings around, refuse to acknowledge problems in their ideas and refuse to be honest in a discussion.

Decisions would not be made, they would be arrived at. Arrived at by AI computer systems and world wide sensor networks. No politicians, no uneducated decision making by unqualified opinions. Just hard data and the scientific method applied to the social direction.
It has a nice ring to it doesnt it?

No. I will not live my life dictated to by an enslaved sentient computer being watched by big brother and being told what to like and forced to work based on a "consensus". I actually cherish freedom.

I will not break down human worth down to "hard data" where a computer could decide if someone lives or dies; works or sleeps everything based on a programmed algorithm. I actually cherish human life.

I will not leave behind substantial chunks of the population for the benefit of a few where if someone doesn't play your game, they get ejected from your little utopia. I actually care about my fellow man.

No. I don't want to live in your little Utopian regime.

 

[AWPrime]

AWPrime: We would use a bunch of renewable energy like solar, wind, wave, tidal, geothermal...
here is a link to the movie. They talk about it at 1:16:53

The energy density isn't enough to power your resource base. You will need to reduce the population for it to have a chance at working.

 

[Mr_Mix]

Liar, liar pants on fire!

Did he just type that?
Hey menthol. I thought you said you were out for at least a day. Hmmm. There must be short days where you are

You sat there and wrote that such systems were not possible earlier in the thread in a move to hand wave any CRITICISM, but now answer the question I posted earlier about AI systems since you are now invoking them. Here I will post it again, and ANSWER IT!

No need to yell dude. I said AI systems and you are going on about sentient living computers. Sentient computers equal AI. AI does not equal sentient computers. Does that compute?

Do you know about Doom, Quake, or Half-Life? They are games with AI in them. Pac Man has AI. I'm sure I'm only explaining this to you guys cause anyone reading this with any clue about computers does not automatically assume AI means sentient computers.

Makes me wonder what kind of people I'm dealing with in this thread. I feel like I walked into a back water bayou down south and am having to deal with the local inhabitants.

Do you know who Steve Mann is? He is an inventor and teacher. He has degrees from MIT and other schools. He is the worlds first cyborg and has been wearing computers in everyday life since the 80's. Guess what...last time I checked, he doesn't think computers will ever be sentient. And guess what...neither do I.

When I say AI computer systems and global sensor networks, its to tell us what we need to do, where and when in order to keep the world sustainable. Are your elected officials going to tell you that? They must be some pretty smart guys. I didn't know they had that kind of technical ability. Or perhaps it will be the laws or treaties they sign. Yes thats it. Sit back and relax menthol. You to Pax. Your politicians have it all figured out.

We could have a system like the one I mentioned now and we need that kind of system if future generations are to have anything left on this earth for them. You are not going to find the answer to the problems of the earth and its people through the opinions of politicians. They do not posses the technical capabilities to be of any relevance. Even if they are honest people, they do not have the technical abilities do do what needs to be done. Do you understand that?

 

[Mr_Mix]

I don't think so. Unlike you, I'm not into being a member of an authoritarian regime. I have something called ethics.
I prepare my statements to show my complete and utter contempt for a delusional fantasy based on nothing more than well wishes and extreme laziness.

I prepare my statements to show maximum disdain for people who refuse to answer questions but instead throw red herrings around, refuse to acknowledge problems in their ideas and refuse to be honest in a discussion.
No. I will not live my life dictated to by an enslaved sentient computer being watched by big brother and being told what to like and forced to work based on a "consensus". I actually cherish freedom.

I will not break down human worth down to "hard data" where a computer could decide if someone lives or dies; works or sleeps everything based on a programmed algorithm. I actually cherish human life.

I will not leave behind substantial chunks of the population for the benefit of a few where if someone doesn't play your game, they get ejected from your little utopia. I actually care about my fellow man.

No. I don't want to live in your little Utopian regime.

Wrong forum. Talk like that belongs on http://forum.prisonplanet.com/
The stuff I said to menthol about AI in my last post is directed at you as well pax since its clear you have the same misunderstanding.

This thread is turning into some type of surreal entertainment for me.

Well, it looks like we're near the bottom of the downward spiral.
Pax, Menthol, our little love triangle is about over. I just can't go on like this
I'm confident that peeps like pax and menthol are not the cream of the crop when it comes to critical thought in this forum. Perhaps in the area of dramatics? You guys are good people though. Good times, good times

 

[Mr_Mix]

The energy density isn't enough to power your resource base. You will need to reduce the population for it to have a chance at working.

Prime! I've never been so happy to see someone I don't know. Comments like this are a breath of fresh air! Plus when I say Prime it makes me feel like a transformer.
What do you mean when you say

The energy density isn't enough to power your resource base.

I'm not sure what you mean by resource base...

So in the last sentence you are saying that the population on earth is too large at present to be supported by these types of energy with current technology? How did you come up with this conclusion? What if we added nuclear to the list? Thats pretty clean in comparison to many other sources of energy...

 

[AWPrime]

What do you mean when you say I'm not sure what you mean by resource base...

So in the last sentence you are saying that the population on earth is too large at present to be supported by these types of energy with current technology? How did you come up with this conclusion? What if we added nuclear to the list? Thats pretty clean in comparison to many other sources of energy...

Your resource base is your resources and how you use them. The massive amount of automation and given everybody what they want, leads to an extremely high amount of power consumption (per person). Thus there needs to be far more infrastructure per person then the current system. And renewable energy has a far lower energy profit then fossil fuels.

 

[fullflavormenthol]

Did he just type that?
Hey menthol. I thought you said you were out for at least a day. Hmmm. There must be short days where you are

Well sometimes you read comments so stupid you have no choice.

No need to yell dude. I said AI systems and you are going on about sentient living computers. Sentient computers equal AI. AI does not equal sentient computers. Does that compute?

Do you know about Doom, Quake, or Half-Life? They are games with AI in them. Pac Man has AI. I'm sure I'm only explaining this to you guys cause anyone reading this with any clue about computers does not automatically assume AI means sentient computers.

Makes me wonder what kind of people I'm dealing with in this thread. I feel like I walked into a back water bayou down south and am having to deal with the local inhabitants.

Okay....well last time I checked Pac-Man wasn't being expected to run a society, and my question dealt with Strong AI which you are playing down. Oh and nice insult there, BTW I do feel like I am speaking with a child when a deal with your postings; sorry if that comes across.

Do you know who Steve Mann is? He is an inventor and teacher. He has degrees from MIT and other schools. He is the worlds first cyborg and has been wearing computers in everyday life since the 80's. Guess what...last time I checked, he doesn't think computers will ever be sentient. And guess what...neither do I.

Ever heard of Igor Aleksander, Stan Franklin, Pentti Haikonen, and Junichi Takeno? Well they take a position that it will, and since I listed more people that just means I am correct.

So basically what this rant of yours is about is basically you refuse to answer even a hypothetical question because you can't. Because without magic wand waving it away you might have to accept the possibility that the Venus Project is an impossible utopian fantasy. And we can't have that now can we.

When I say AI computer systems and global sensor networks, its to tell us what we need to do, where and when in order to keep the world sustainable. Are your elected officials going to tell you that? They must be some pretty smart guys. I didn't know they had that kind of technical ability. Or perhaps it will be the laws or treaties they sign. Yes thats it. Sit back and relax menthol. You to Pax. Your politicians have it all figured out.

Wow, that is an awesome strawman you built there. How long did it take you? Since when did anyone say that politicians were the best determinist factor? You know just keeping making crap up, because it totally helps "spread awareness".

We could have a system like the one I mentioned now and we need that kind of system if future generations are to have anything left on this earth for them. You are not going to find the answer to the problems of the earth and its people through the opinions of politicians. They do not posses the technical capabilities to be of any relevance. Even if they are honest people, they do not have the technical abilities do do what needs to be done. Do you understand that?

Well I understand you somehow believe that a computer working from a human designed algorithm, will be able to predict every perturbation in a complex system with such accuracy that humans won't have to plan their own society. This is what you believe? Do you even understand what is wrong with this? I mean once you understand the flaw in your system than you understand that you have mixed a recipe for the chocolate cake I like to call massive world wide starvation. This is only going to be compounded by fact you have stated that there is no specialization in your society. So there are no Ph.D.'s in Agricultural Science with a specialization in Potatoes. Hell there aren't even people who are good at picking the things, how the hell would someone get good at anything working only 2-4 hours twice a week?

I seen one computer system that was able to micromanage things, and it was a system of stores. I'm talking about Walmart, btw, and I expect another side splitter about the bayou. The system is based upon items leaving the store, and has a limited predictive quality. You won't have anything as complex as this, because lack the inputs that make this system work. This complex Walmart ordering is based on real data, and even it can be completely incorrect.

No thank you. While we may not know nothin' about none of that there fancy book learnin' by no venus project down he'r in the bayou, we do understand why it is mathematically improbable that such a computer system would actually work. Nevertheless I'll go ask Pac-Man to tell me what the weather will be like at exactly 3:05 PM tomorrow.

Also personal attacks against me and Pax aren't going to magic up the answers to the flaws in the Venus Project. It may make you feel better to declare yourself as part of an intelligentsia that we undesirables can't even wish to understand, but it isn't so.

 

[bobrayner]

This is only going to be compounded by fact you have stated that there is no specialization in your society. So there are no Ph.D.'s in Agricultural Science with a specialization in Potatoes. Hell there aren't even people who are good at picking the things, how the hell would someone get good at anything working only 2-4 hours twice a week?

No specialisation? That makes it even worse.

The benefits of specialisation & division of labour have been explicitly recognised for hundreds of years. If you discard them, productivity will nosedive.

Perhaps mr_mix would like to read this?
http://www.ibiblio.org/ml/libri/s/SmithA_WealthNations_p.pdf
It's available for free, unlike the mysterious texts sold by Mr We-Wont-Need-Money-In-Utopia.

It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love

 

[paximperium]

Wrong forum. Talk like that belongs on http://forum.prisonplanet.com/

Why don't you take your beliefs and share it with those conspiracy theory nutjobs? It has the same level of intelligence, evidence and reality in it.

The stuff I said to menthol about AI in my last post is directed at you as well pax since its clear you have the same misunderstanding.

No misunderstanding at all. You want a human society apparently run by computers that don't exist. Computers that will need to monitor everything to be able to make good decisions. Big brother at its best. Not interested.

I clearly see you not answering anything at all, as usual. More magic hand-waving to make any criticism go away.

This thread is turning into some type of surreal entertainment for me.

Well, it looks like we're near the bottom of the downward spiral.
Pax, Menthol, our little love triangle is about over. I just can't go on like this

Of course, I find it less than amusing that you would use that defence mechanism.

Unable to refute anything, you fall back to sarcasm in attempt to delude yourself into believing that valid criticisms are somehow magicked away. Nothing more than juvenile fantasy wrapped in the guise of an actual idea.

I'm confident that peeps like pax and menthol are not the cream of the crop when it comes to critical thought in this forum. Perhaps in the area of dramatics? You guys are good people though. Good times, good times

An Ad hominem without a single attempt at refuting the huge holes in your messiah's dogma. Nothing more than childish whining. You sound exactly like a fundamentalist.

Anyone can read the rest of your posts and drawn their own conclusion about your judgment and intelligence. Frankly no one will take your "conclusion" about me and methol seriously.

 

[paximperium]

Wow, that is an awesome strawman you built there. How long did it take you? Since when did anyone say that politicians were the best determinist factor?

Well, I would love to have computers make decisions for me as opposed to human politicians that can be voted out of office

Who programs these algorithms? Who decides how the computer thinks? Manages society? What do you do if you don't agree with the computer's decision?

You know just keeping making crap up, because it totally helps "spread awareness".

I haven't heard much of this delusional utopians belief until it was first brought here by BDZ. So I guess it is spreading awareness of a terrible idea whose proponents don't even understand what they are proposing and lack even basic knowledge of the world.

Same fantasy scam that the original Zeitgeist folk dropped on the world, just repeat and rinse. Now we know what the anti-capitalist anarchist people are doing.

 

[dudalb]

I knew it was going to be magical computers! I knew it!

It's like some mid-Robot-series Asimov fantasy.

But I am afraid it would turn out more like Harlan Ellison's "I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream".


I think trying to get through to the True Believers in the Venus Project ,with their incredible ability to ignore unpleasent realities is something like this:

 

[petrarch1603]

Okay I fiinally read this entire thread. Its like the blind leading the blind. The Venus project is a joke and will never come to fruition. No venus cities will be built, simple as that. You guys might as well talk about the price of tea in china. Mr Mix, the ignorance in your arguments is astounding. I think that you are upset with capitalism and our consumer culture and you've just run into the opposite direction. Save your breath though, the venus project is a dead-end. It will never work.

 

[dudalb]

THe "Half Life" reference is of the biggest WTFs I have seen in a while.

 

[paximperium]

THe "Half Life" reference is of the biggest WTFs I have seen in a while.

Well, it does show the ignorance about specifically what is specifically meant by Artificial Intelligence Vs. Bots.

Bots are a subset of AIs, very simple programed routines designed to act a specific way in a program. No one in their right mind would call these bots intelligent and Mix is just playing a semantic game when he is not able to refute a point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_intelligence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_game_bot

 

[Mr_Mix]

No specialisation? That makes it even worse.

The benefits of specialisation & division of labour have been explicitly recognised for hundreds of years. If you discard them, productivity will nosedive.

Perhaps mr_mix would like to read this?
http://www.ibiblio.org/ml/libri/s/SmithA_WealthNations_p.pdf
It's available for free, unlike the mysterious texts sold by Mr We-Wont-Need-Money-In-Utopia.

It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love

I am familiar with the text you reference but I'm talking about a different kind of society in the future and you give me a link to an economics book written in 1776. It's free for a reason. It's old. The book I mention is written in the last few years and when you making references to its cost it seems you are implying that in this monetary system people should give their work away for free. That would not work in this system. Also, the book is not mysterious.

 

[Mr_Mix]

An Ad hominem without a single attempt at refuting the huge holes in your messiah's dogma. Nothing more than childish whining. You sound exactly like a fundamentalist.

Anyone can read the rest of your posts and drawn their own conclusion about your judgment and intelligence. Frankly no one will take your "conclusion" about me and methol seriously.

Why all the religious references? Aren't you embarrassed by your speech? You have no shame!
People can draw any conclusion about me that they like and I will not be bother at all. I don't care what anyone thinks about anyone else in here.

 

[Mr_Mix]

Okay I fiinally read this entire thread. Its like the blind leading the blind. The Venus project is a joke and will never come to fruition. No venus cities will be built, simple as that. You guys might as well talk about the price of tea in china. Mr Mix, the ignorance in your arguments is astounding. I think that you are upset with capitalism and our consumer culture and you've just run into the opposite direction. Save your breath though, the venus project is a dead-end. It will never work.

Tell me what you think about capitalism and our consumer culture. Are you at ease? Do you think its the best way to go now and for the next, say, two hundered years?