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The "Workers' Paradise" eats its own

shemp

a flimsy character...perfidious and despised
Joined
Nov 5, 2002
Messages
69,589
Location
The U.S., a wretched hive of scum and villainy.
China sees surge in factory accidents

In a grim replay of the Industrial revolution in the United States and other countries, machinery will crush or sever the arms, hands, and fingers of some 40,000 Chinese workers this year, according to government-controlled news media. Some privately say the true number is higher.

A majority of the accidents occur in metalworking and electronics plants with heavy stamping equipment, shoe and handbag factories with leather-cutting equipment, toy factories and industrial plastics plants with blazing-hot machinery.

In Shenzhen's hospital wards, maimed factory workers tell of managers who've removed the machine safety guards that slowed output and of working on unsafe equipment. Workers toiling 100 hours a week grow dazed from fatigue, then lose their fingers to machines.

Local officials routinely overlook appalling safety conditions, worried that factory owners will relocate. They send mutilated migrant workers back to distant rural villages, shunting the burden of workplace injuries onto poorer inland provinces.

The workplace carnage is bitterly ironic in a communist country that was founded on the principles of protecting workers.

Chinese Communist Party leaders are so eager to maintain high economic growth, and to create jobs for tens of millions of potentially restive Chinese, that they now preside over a savage form of capitalism in which maimed workers are readily discarded. Independent labor unions are banned.

You might want to send this link to your friends when they ask why they shouldn't buy Chinese-made products or shop at Wal-Mart.
 
OK, I'll go to the cobbler shop instead and pay $200 for wooden shoes made by pampered Dutch faggots on Newbury Street who earn 30 bucks an hour and work 5-hour days. Is that what you want?
 
shemp said:


No! You ARE asking me to shop at the cobbler on Newbury Street instead and pay $200 for wooden shoes made by pampered Dutch faggots who earn 30 bucks an hour and work 5-hour days. That's EXACTLY what you are asking me to do.
 
A couple of points, American:

1) There's no reason why you can't spend $200 on shoes. It's not like you have anything else to spend your money on.

2) Don't be too quick to judge 'faggots' until you've experimented with homosexuality yourself. In fact, considering your luck with chicks, you've nothing to lose by taking up the homosexual lifestyle permanently. You certainly can't do any worse than you are now.
 
I just don't get it. Why has Wal-Mart become a such a prime target of liberals? It's not like they sell products that are any different from Target or any other store. What gives?
 
peptoabysmal said:
I just don't get it. Why has Wal-Mart become a such a prime target of liberals? It's not like they sell products that are any different from Target or any other store. What gives?

I think their products are different from other stores in some cases. Something to do with their ability to force manufacturers to meet a particular price before they will carry a good.

But that isn't the point. Wal-Mart certainly isn't alone in profiting off of cheap labor. Wal-Mart is often used an example since it is the industry leader, as often McDonalds is used when discussing fast food. It is more about the use of language than about a specific condemnation of the named party.

Now re-read the first paragraph. See how I used the same type of narrow pedantic objection you used? Isn't that sort of thing annoying?
 
peptoabysmal said:
I just don't get it. Why has Wal-Mart become a such a prime target of liberals? It's not like they sell products that are any different from Target or any other store. What gives?

Pepto,

Walmart is selling products made by (near)slave labor. That's why the smiley face can knock all those prices down. But at the same time Mr. Smiley is knocking out American jobs (which is not something that Mr. Walton would ever have approved of...he actually built small factories in little Arkansas towns like the picture frame factory outside Piggott, AR)

Also, Walmart uses undocumented aliens when it can get away with it. Also they drive other local businesses under by using their huge corporate profits to help some stores stay viable while they are driving others out of business. They also pay only minimum wages to their workers, and actually "ask" them to work off the clock without OT pay on a regular basis. When a worker is heard speaking the word "union" they are fired quickly.

Sure they sell stuff cheaply....but I don't shop there myself. The place frankly scares me. It's like a retail version of "The Borg"... personally I don't want to end up as one of those pathetic old gents greeting people at the door.

-z

BTW: I'm no liberal....but I am a Teamster. :D
 
Suddenly said:
I think their products are different from other stores in some cases. Something to do with their ability to force manufacturers to meet a particular price before they will carry a good.

"Force"? No, they're just large and popular enough to be able to demand a better deal. And in case you haven't noticed, that benefits the consumers.

The opening post is just the same kind of bogus comparison the anti-corporate types always love to make: they compare situations in underdeveloped and developing societies with modern America. Well, it's NOT the same situation, and you can't go from being relatively undeveloped to safe and efficient industrial environments overnight.
 
shemp said:
China sees surge in factory accidents



You might want to send this link to your friends when they ask why they shouldn't buy Chinese-made products or shop at Wal-Mart.

Well, you know it wasn't that long ago that things were very much the same here. I worked in the sheet metal shop of a manufacturing company in the 1970s. We ran huge punch presses and "breaks" - which bend pieces of metal into certain shapes and sheet metal shears all with no safety apparatus. You got your hand or arm in there, it was gone. I saw one guy get his hand stuck in a break - a wedge shaped piece of metal coming down into a mating piece of metal. The machine was geared in such a way that it had to finish its rotation before it could come back up - you couldn't reverse it. Ofcourse, it couldn't finish its rotation because the hand and bone crushed in there. It took them 40 minutes to disassemble the thing to get the guys hand out - not pretty. He was pretty much well into shock by that time, but he survived. I had a lot of horrible dangerous jobs like that when I was younger.
 
shanek said:


"Force"? No, they're just large and popular enough to be able to demand a better deal. And in case you haven't noticed, that benefits the consumers.
"Force" as in their choice is to go out of business. I'm not sure presenting a shoddier version of a product implying that it is the same sold everywhere else "helps" the consumer. In context, it looks like subtle fraud to me.


The opening post is just the same kind of bogus comparison the anti-corporate types always love to make: they compare situations in underdeveloped and developing societies with modern America. Well, it's NOT the same situation, and you can't go from being relatively undeveloped to safe and efficient industrial environments overnight.

The claim is not that it is the same situation. The claim is that it is wrong to harm people for profit, period. The government in most of these countries (China for one) isn't exactly concerned with the well being of the workers, nor is it exactly democratic. It's not like the workers can quit.

How you can defend forced slave labor based on the slave being in a more primitive society is just mind blowing.
 
Suddenly said:
Force" as in their choice is to go out of business. I'm not sure presenting a shoddier version of a product implying that it is the same sold everywhere else "helps" the consumer. In context, it looks like subtle fraud to me.
Do you have any evidence of this? Are the digital cameras here any different from the ones sold here? Same make, same model. What am I missing?

The claim is not that it is the same situation. The claim is that it is wrong to harm people for profit, period. The government in most of these countries (China for one) isn't exactly concerned with the well being of the workers, nor is it exactly democratic. It's not like the workers can quit.

How you can defend forced slave labor based on the slave being in a more primitive society is just mind blowing.
They are not forced to work there, even in China. Most of those workers left farms, where the pay and conditions were far worse.

It is unrealistic to expect the pay and conditions in a third world country to be on par with more developed ones. The US didn't achieve it overnight, neither will China. It takes time, eventually they'l catch up.

Boycotting these products successfully would result in those workers going back to the farms they came from, living in poverty and conditions you could only imagine. And no hope of ever having anything better.

It really does strike me as elitist, as if your saying "I've got mine, you shouldn't ever get yours".
 
Suddenly said:
"Force" as in their choice is to go out of business.

No, it isn't. Their choice is to just deal with other people. Plenty of products continue to be sold and make good money despite not being sold in Wal-Marts.
 
WildCat said:
They are not forced to work there, even in China. Most of those workers left farms, where the pay and conditions were far worse.

Yes, and that was the same benefits that the "robber barons" gave people here in the 19th Century. Amazing how these people voluntarily chose the "sweat shops" instead of continuing the farm work. They DID have a choice, y'know.

It really does strike me as elitist, as if your saying "I've got mine, you shouldn't ever get yours".

Exactly. We've got no problems living off of the benefits of those "exploited" workers that came before us, yet we go around the world telling people that they can't do exactly the same thing.
 
WildCat said:

Do you have any evidence of this? Are the digital cameras here any different from the ones sold here? Same make, same model. What am I missing?

Not the case with all products. You do see an obvious difference sometimes, I have with various products. I can't find the article that discusses it. Wal-Mart gives suppliers a target price and unless the suppiler meets it they go pound sand. For some companies, if this is too low for their base model they produce an alternate version just for Wal-Mart. Usually nobody can tell the difference. Not exactly earth shaking stuff.




They are not forced to work there, even in China. Most of those workers left farms, where the pay and conditions were far worse.
The conditions wouldn't be bad on those farms because the Chinese government (You do remember they are Commies, don't you?) is artificially keeping food prices down in the cities? To say someone voluntarialy left one place of government economic oppression for another is hardly a choice. They can starve at home or come to the city and get killed in an industrial accident. The Chinese Government doesn't care. People, they have plenty of.


It is unrealistic to expect the pay and conditions in a third world country to be on par with more developed ones. The US didn't achieve it overnight, neither will China. It takes time, eventually they'l catch up.
If China were a free county, maybe. It isn't. It isn't likely to be. The main difference will be how many people high up in the party have nice cars.


Boycotting these products successfully would result in those workers going back to the farms they came from, living in poverty and conditions you could only imagine. And no hope of ever having anything better.

It really does strike me as elitist, as if your saying "I've got mine, you shouldn't ever get yours".

If it were a free country, where people had the right to do as they pleased, to leave, to dissent, to not be forced by the government to do as the government says, there would be some merit to this whole "stages of development" thing, that they were making a better life for themselves. At present, they are being exploited by a corrupt totalitarian government that grows stronger the more we trade with it.
 
Suddenly said:
If it were a free country, where people had the right to do as they pleased, to leave, to dissent, to not be forced by the government to do as the government says, there would be some merit to this whole "stages of development" thing, that they were making a better life for themselves....

Were it not for the sentence following the ... I'd have just as easily have thought you were a LPer talking about the U.S.

Still, you could be. It's just a matter of degree.

Edit: last sentence added as an afterthought.
 
Suddenly said:
Not the case with all products. You do see an obvious difference sometimes, I have with various products. I can't find the article that discusses it. Wal-Mart gives suppliers a target price and unless the suppiler meets it they go pound sand.

Having been on that side of it I can tell you that it's actually much more complex than that. They are perfectly willing to let you have a larger target price if you can push more units (makes sense, duh!). There isn't just one single price they'll quote you and that's that; you negotiate with them for both a target price and the number of units you can sell in a particular amount of time (when I saw it, that was a month). So you give them X number of units and they put them on the shelves in several locations at $Y each. If you sell out within a month (or whatever the specified time period is), in you go.

So a higher-quality, more expensive item CAN be sold in Wal-Mart IF you can push out the extra units. If you can't, then apparently the additional quality just isn't worth that much to consumers.

The conditions wouldn't be bad on those farms because the Chinese government (You do remember they are Commies, don't you?) is artificially keeping food prices down in the cities?

Certainly that would be a horrible thing, but even compared to the early 19th Century farms in the US, where this wasn't happening, people were better off in the "unsafe" "sweat shops" of the "robber barons." It's ridiculous to compare them to us; it's perfectly reasonable to compare them to what they had before.

If China were a free county, maybe. It isn't. It isn't likely to be.

It is becoming freer, though, at least in an economic sense. It's got a long way to go, but it is moving in that direction. And the more it moves in that direction, the better off its people are.
 
Rob Lister said:
Were it not for the sentence following the ... I'd have just as easily have thought you were a LPer talking about the U.S.

Still, you could be. It's just a matter of degree.

Heh. "...where people had the right to do as they pleased, to leave, to dissent, to not be forced by the government to do as the government says..." Yeah, it's not like we're living in a country where you have to seek the government's permission to open a business, or show your papers as a condition of travelling around the country or even your local area, or have a portion of your income extorted in exchange for the privilege of having a job, or have to spend out more money complying with the government's wishes than you make in profits, or limit your governmental protests to "free speech zones," or face the possibility of the government declaring you a "person of interest" and taking you off to some unknown location where you can't leave, will be perpetually interrogated, and will not be given the benefit of counsel or of a trial or even charged with a crime...

...uh, wait a minute... :eek:
 
Suddenly said:
If China were a free county, maybe. It isn't. It isn't likely to be. The main difference will be how many people high up in the party have nice cars.

I've been hearing about how China is just poised to become the next world-shattering economic powerhouse within the next five years.

Trouble is, I've been hearing that pretty continuously for a quarter of a century.
 

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