The West Lothian Question

[Rolfe]

I can't help but think that the 'deserve what you get logic' is neither particularly correct nor particularly useful as a political position. You could equally argue that everyone who voted SNP deserves whatever shafting Cameron decides to give us as they didn't vote Labour to keep him out.

Well, hardly. The Scottish voters only failed to "keep Cameron out" in a single constituency. Do you think it would have been any different if Claudia Beamish had got in there? Yes, I voted SNP in that constituency, and I'm not beating my breast saying, oh if only I'd voted Labour, I have to say.

Its seems there is almost no legitimate way that Scotland can vote for independence - even voting the SNP as the largest party in the Scottish government didn't make any progress on the issue.

The problem there was that the majority in Holyrood was a slim as it gets, allowing the other parties to gang up against the SNP on the matter of a referendum. Indeed, the PR system is designed to deny the SNP a majority, but with a larger share of the vote it would have been much more difficult to gang up in that way.

The problem gets right back to, any vote for a unionist party is counted as a vote in favour of the union. If Scotland isn't prepared to vote SNP in large enough numbers, then the impasse will remain.

It's a dilemma the SNP always faces. Concentrate on independence and stand accused of being a single-issue party with no other policies, why vote for them, or become a fully-rounded poitical party with policies and so on, and annoy some people who may be in favour of independence on principle.

I cast an SNP vote every time I get the chance, to signal my desire to end the union. I suppose it's possible for the SNP to adopt some policy which would mean I could no longer vote for the party in all conscience, but it certainly hasn't managed that yet.

If other voters have other priorities, and choose to vote on other criteria even though they are in favour of independence, then that's their prerogative. However, they have to realise that they are voting in favour of the union when they do this.

Rolfe.

 

[Last of the Fraggles]

Well, hardly. The Scottish voters only failed to "keep Cameron out" in a single constituency. Do you think it would have been any different if Claudia Beamish had got in there? Yes, I voted SNP in that constituency, and I'm not beating my breast saying, oh if only I'd voted Labour, I have to say.

And by the same token had I voted SNP instead of Lib Dem (which I very almost did) I'd still have a Unionist MP but somehow would have a legitimate gripe?

People vote on a basket of issues and the independence one was simply not all that important in this particular election. Realistically there was no way in which any particular vote in this election would have moved the independence agenda significantly forward.

The Tories have no support in Scotland, no interest in Scotland and nothing to lose. They will shaft Scotland at every opportunity. I don't think Labour voters deserve that shafting because they voted for a nominally Unionist party at this election.

Nor do I think Clegg has the right to sentence Scotland to that outcome.

The problem there was that the majority in Holyrood was a slim as it gets, allowing the other parties to gang up against the SNP on the matter of a referendum. Indeed, the PR system is designed to deny the SNP a majority, but with a larger share of the vote it would have been much more difficult to gang up in that way.

The problem gets right back to, any vote for a unionist party is counted as a vote in favour of the union. If Scotland isn't prepared to vote SNP in large enough numbers, then the impasse will remain.

It's a dilemma the SNP always faces. Concentrate on independence and stand accused of being a single-issue party with no other policies, why vote for them, or become a fully-rounded poitical party with policies and so on, and annoy some people who may be in favour of independence on principle.

I cast an SNP vote every time I get the chance, to signal my desire to end the union. I suppose it's possible for the SNP to adopt some policy which would mean I could no longer vote for the party in all conscience, but it certainly hasn't managed that yet.

If other voters have other priorities, and choose to vote on other criteria even though they are in favour of independence, then that's their prerogative. However, they have to realise that they are voting in favour of the union when they do this.

Rolfe.

Its simply not going to happen though. The independence issue simply has to be treated separately as does voting reform. The people need to be consulted on both, they aren't party political issues.

I am generally in favour of independence though not as fervently as I once might have been however I don't think I would vote SNP in an election where the outcome of that would likely be that a Tory was elected as my MP.

Which is a sad outcome for everyone, including the Tories as there are elements of their policies that appeal to me and I might actually consider voting for a Scottish Tory in an independent Scotland but not as a UK government.

 

[Rolfe]

And by the same token had I voted SNP instead of Lib Dem (which I very almost did) I'd still have a Unionist MP but somehow would have a legitimate gripe?

That's not what I meant. Nobody really has a legitimate gripe while the majority vote favours parties which explicitly campaign on a platform that supports Scotland being governed by whoever wins in England. If you'd voted SNP you might be complaining that not enough people followed your example, but that's rather different.

People vote on a basket of issues and the independence one was simply not all that important in this particular election.

Indeed. If it's not important enough to vote on that criterion, it's hardly reasonable to start complaining after the event. If it's important not to be governed by the party that wins in England, it's important enough to vote on that basis.

Realistically there was no way in which any particular vote in this election would have moved the independence agenda significantly forward.

Only if you think a vote of say 32% for the SNP was unrealistic. For comparison, the party got 32.6% in the 1994 Euro-elections and 29.1% in 2009. It's only unrealistic if everyone who's interested decides it's unrealistic and votes on other criteria. Which they seem to be doing, right enough.

The Tories have no support in Scotland, no interest in Scotland and nothing to lose. They will shaft Scotland at every opportunity. I don't think Labour voters deserve that shafting because they voted for a nominally Unionist party at this election.

Deserve? No. But brought it upon themselves? Possibly. If they really want to remain in the united kingdom then that's their choice, and this is the inevitable consequence. Grumbling is all very well, but them's the breaks. If on the other hand they want Scotland to have self-determination (which is how it would seem, given the tenor of much of the grumbling), well you don't vote for it you don't get it I'm afraid.

Nor do I think Clegg has the right to sentence Scotland to that outcome.

Frankly, he does have that right. I don't like it one little bit, but that's what people voted for.

Its simply not going to happen though. The independence issue simply has to be treated separately as does voting reform. The people need to be consulted on both, they aren't party political issues.

The people aren't going to be consulted, though, unless the SNP gets a high enough share of the vote. The other parties have made that abundantly clear.

I am generally in favour of independence though not as fervently as I once might have been however I don't think I would vote SNP in an election where the outcome of that would likely be that a Tory was elected as my MP.

That's where the constituency FPTP system skews voting so much and things get so tactical. I actually thought the LibDem candidate might get through, and that the Labour candidate had given up. In fact the LibDem came a poor third, though she's the one I might have supported if getting the Tory out had been my main priority.

Which is a sad outcome for everyone, including the Tories as there are elements of their policies that appeal to me and I might actually consider voting for a Scottish Tory in an independent Scotland but not as a UK government.

Who knows how party politics would realign in an independent Scotland? I think that's a point a lot of people don't take into consideration. The SNP might start off in power, possibly, but if their policies weren't popular they'd be out, smartish.

Some people believe an independent Scotland would be perpetually Labour-ruled, but I don't think so. I think the right of the spectrum would come out from under the shadow of Thatcher and assert itself in Scottish terms, and we'd have much more balanced politics.

This is why I disagree so profoundly with people like Ian Bell, who declare they're in favour on independence, but they won't vote for it unless the form on offer is exactly the flavour they favour. Ian Bell refuses to support the SNP (or a yes vote in a referendum, I think) unless the independent country on offer is a republic. Others won't go for it unless we adopt the Euro. Or don't adopt the Euro. Or whatever.

I don't see independence as a means to a particular end of that sort. I believe that Scotland as a self-governing nation would be better placed to prosper, and I'd be prepared to accept and work within the politics that arose from that state. I'd hope for a republic, but if that wasn't the democratic wish, then so be it.

However, we have no chance at all of achieving any of these goals for Scotland while the union persists. To me, independence is the first step, and then see where and how far we want to go. Sitting declaring that you'll vote "no" unless a republic (or whatever) is wrapped up in a guarantee upfront is just silly.

Rolfe.

 

[Last of the Fraggles]

Some people believe an independent Scotland would be perpetually Labour-ruled, but I don't think so. I think the right of the spectrum would come out from under the shadow of Thatcher and assert itself in Scottish terms, and we'd have much more balanced politics.

This is why I disagree so profoundly with people like Ian Bell, who declare they're in favour on independence, but they won't vote for it unless the form on offer is exactly the flavour they favour. Ian Bell refuses to support the SNP (or a yes vote in a referendum, I think) unless the independent country on offer is a republic. Others won't go for it unless we adopt the Euro. Or don't adopt the Euro. Or whatever.

I don't see independence as a means to a particular end of that sort. I believe that Scotland as a self-governing nation would be better placed to prosper, and I'd be prepared to accept and work within the politics that arose from that state. I'd hope for a republic, but if that wasn't the democratic wish, then so be it.

However, we have no chance at all of achieving any of these goals for Scotland while the union persists. To me, independence is the first step, and then see where and how far we want to go. Sitting declaring that you'll vote "no" unless a republic (or whatever) is wrapped up in a guarantee upfront is just silly.

Rolfe.

I wholeheartedly agree with this...but at the same time I simply acknowledge that realistically a sizeable vote for the SNP is not going to happen at a UK general election. I don't think this translates to a majority of people being happy with the status quo.

If you are trying to persuade Scotland to vote SNP in a UK general election in significant enough numbers to make a change then...well it's not going to happen.

Its probably in fact in the SNP's interests to encourage the grumbling and offer their support to the grumblers in the hope that they can sway enough people to vote SNP at the next Scottish Election and get a mandate for a referendum through that. When is the next Scottish Election due incidentally?

 

[Rolfe]

First week of May 2011. It's a fixed-term parliament. I fervently hope the fall-out from all this mess doesn't rumble on long enough to interfere negatively with the SNP vote then.

Sure, an SNP vote in a Holyrood election is a much more rational way to approach independence. However, I can't see any real point in not following that rationale at a general election as well, even if it's a lesser opportunity. Everybody is back to talking about Labour as if they're a left-wing party that might give us something significantly different from the Tories, and boo-hoo what a shame they didn't win. NuLab has been the Conservative party painted pale pink. You couldn't get a cigarette paper between them on the important issues. Hell mend the lot of them, quite frankly.

Oops, maybe all this should be in the independence thread. Sorry.

Rolfe.