The Web Braces for Biggest Wikileaks Dump to Date

That's a clever bit of weaseling. The sanctions were probably the most comprehensive economic sanctions ever placed on a country. It totally destroyed Iraq's economy. Among the things they were no longer able to buy in sufficient amounts, even though they weren't specifically part of the sanctions regime, were items necessary for the public health.
Someone's weaseling here, and it isn't me. Medicine and food was not part of the sanctions from the very beginning.

I also like the idea that we escape moral responsibility for the deaths due to sanctions because Saddam didn't invest the little money he had in humanitarian efforts. That was highly predictable. This was all a very conscious decision, as Albright's quote shows. We knew Saddam would behave in such a way that would lead to hundreds of thousand of innocent deaths and we moved forward even though, as we learned in this last invasion, he was impotent after the first Gulf War.
Uh, he was impotent because of the sanctions which prevented him from rebuilding his military. You are engaging in circular reasoning.
As for North Korea, they actually have nukes, which complicates matters. If the choice is between military action and sanctions, take the sanctions. That choice wasn't forced in Iraq, however, and the weapons inspectors tried to explain this.
How is N. Korea "forced"? Why is it ok for millions of N. Korean civilians to starve?

I have no idea what you mean by "the weapons inspectors tried to explain this". Saddam did not cooperate with the weapons inspectors sent there to verify his compliance because Saddam did not document the dismantling of his chemical and biological weapons programs as he was supposed to. It wasn't their job to search for WMDs, it was their job to verify compliance.
 
Someone's weaseling here, and it isn't me. Medicine and food was not part of the sanctions from the very beginning.

That's just not true. I quoted the security council resolution. Food was only exempt from the sanctions regime when things became desperate.

As for the rest, it was more than predictable that halting all of Iraq's trade would result in a lack of purchasing power. The notion that Saddam would have chosen to spend his meager resources for the benefit of his people was never a possibility. We knew what would happen, and we made that choice because of false fear about a toothless enemy. You'll find that we have a habit of such behavior.

Uh, he was impotent because of the sanctions which prevented him from rebuilding his military. You are engaging in circular reasoning.

Again, that's just not true. Read Hanz Blix and Scott Ritter. The Gulf War bombings destroyed about 90-95% of his capabilities. Most of the rest of it deteriorated with age, and the remaining few percent were eliminated in subsequent bombing raids.

Certainly the sanctions made it more difficult for him to get parts, but he wasn't anywhere near having an actual weapons program. The severity of the sanctions were overkill, which is why they were modified in the late 90's. As I said, when the NGO's were allowed to distribute food and medicine in Iraq, the sanctions were still effective with respect to weapons, and the health situation improved. We could still be operating under that arrangement now.

How is N. Korea "forced"? Why is it ok for millions of N. Korean civilians to starve?

We have to treat North Korea more gingerly because they actually have nuclear capabilities. Saddam was impotent after the first Gulf War, and it was American politicians (both parties) that built up Saddam as an imaginary threat to justify policy choices and secure popularity.

I have no idea what you mean by "the weapons inspectors tried to explain this". Saddam did not cooperate with the weapons inspectors sent there to verify his compliance because Saddam did not document the dismantling of his chemical and biological weapons programs as he was supposed to. It wasn't their job to search for WMDs, it was their job to verify compliance.

What I mean is that the weapons inspectors explained in great detail exactly what Saddam had and what his capabilities were. Here is a really short book by Scott Ritter published before the invasion that categorizes where his stockpiles went:

http://www.amazon.com/War-Iraq-What...=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1284954362&sr=1-5

This was proved 100% accurate by the invasion.

And now that revisionist history has set in, it needs to be repeated that Saddam didn't kick the inspectors out, Bush pulled them out before he started bombing. The inspectors said Saddam was hiding certain sites, his palace being one of them, but that there was little chance that anything significant was hidden there.

Saddam just wasn't a threat. The inspectors could document it, and the BEST thing you can say about our case is that it was woefully inept. The more likely situation involved lies. But that's the choice: lying or stupid.
 
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Bumping this thread to bring you the following:

Wikileaks plans 'major' announcement in Europe

LONDON – The WikiLeaks website appears close to releasing what the Pentagon fears is the largest cache of secret U.S. documents in history — hundreds of thousands of intelligence reports compiled after the 2003 invasion of Iraq.

Don't know exactly how many will potentially be released, but SPC Manning did apparently provide Wikileaks with hundreds of thousands of documents, so it's anyone's guess as to what will be revealed.

I for one find Julian Assange to be irresponsible beyond belief, and while this may get him attention for a few seconds, I fail to see what this will accomplish. We no longer have a combat mission in Iraq for Pete's sake! I really wish I knew what his motivation is for this.
 
I speculate that Assange will be dealt with in some extralegal manner prior to being able to dump the data; that the data-transmission will be blocked in any which way possible in order to prevent it from getting out. Sweden is one of the locations of his servers, and they've already tried to go after him for sexual assault, so I think they'll jam his messages with no problems.

I speculate that he's (along with the leakers, of course) already caused a few deaths. A bullet in the head from an unknown "mugger" would NOT hurt my feelings at all. Transparency is wonderful for politics and law, but against enemies who handle their problems with guns, excessive transparency just gets good people killed. SPC Manning is even more overdue for a bullet, IMO.
 
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Hyperbole much?

Saddam Hussein had a wide network of secret informants. Anyone who spoke badly of him could be tortured or killed. Imagine having to live in a society where you have to pretend to support the dictator for fear of death? He dropped chemical weapons on the Kurds, killing hundreds of thousands. He killed hundreds of thousands of Shi'a after their failed attempt to rebel. Hyperbole?
 
I hope they catch the leaker.


Leaker, no leaking!

images
 
The link above mentions 66,081 civilian deaths, per a coalition body count.

Doesn't jibe with the um hundreds of gazillions by door to door polling a couple years a go, does it?
 
From the Gaurdian link above:

"The whistleblowing activists say they have deleted all names from the documents that might result in reprisals. They were accused by the US military of possibly having "blood on their hands" over the previous Afghan release by redacting too few names. But the military recently conceded that no harm had been identified.

Condemning this fresh leak, however, the Pentagon said: "This security breach could very well get our troops and those they are fighting with killed. Our enemies will mine this information looking for insights into how we operate, cultivate sources and react in combat situations, even the capability of our equipment."

Seems the leaks could be harmful in a general way, but have not been harmful to any particular person/unit.
 
Now that it's been released, I wonder how much it's going to hurt Manning. Depending on the revelations, I wouldn't be surprised if he's suddenly staring at life of hard labour.

Hope it was worth it to him, seeing the US and their allies' reputation utterly destroyed.
 
The link above mentions 66,081 civilian deaths, per a coalition body count.

Doesn't jibe with the um hundreds of gazillions by door to door polling a couple years a go, does it?

No comment on the torture, summary executions and war crimes, then?

Now that it's been released, I wonder how much it's going to hurt Manning. Depending on the revelations, I wouldn't be surprised if he's suddenly staring at life of hard labour.

Hope it was worth it to him, seeing the US and their allies' reputation utterly destroyed.

Should a reputation be based on truth or lies?
 
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Condemning this fresh leak, however, the Pentagon said: "This security breach could very well get our troops and those they are fighting with killed. Our enemies will mine this information looking for insights into how we operate, cultivate sources and react in combat situations, even the capability of our equipment."
Lol @ Pentagon. They already used a variation on that argument with the last leak, and then debunked it themselves a couple weeks ago.
Hope it was worth it to him, seeing the US and their allies' reputation utterly destroyed.
Yeah, I don't think anyone needed a leak for that.
Aren't you one who supported Saddam Hussein?
Torture is okay cause the last guy did it too.
 
Put another way: it's surprising how suddenly things like torture and war crimes don't really matter that much, when just a while ago they were terribly important and had to be stopped.
 
Put another way: it's surprising how suddenly things like torture and war crimes don't really matter that much, when just a while ago they were terribly important and had to be stopped.
Would you like the US to overthrow the Iraqi government again?
 
How was the coalition supposed to stop the Iraqis from torturing other Iraqis? Should we have kidnapped the torturers and taken them to America for trials? We did report the torturing to the Iraqis' bosses, but we were not in political control of the sovereign country. And we were not there to investigate civil crimes.
 

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