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The warmers are becoming skeptics

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Not yet, all allegations and much under investigation.
Proof, no - not exactly.
Suspicions, absolutely.

figures.

i, like most other TRUE skeptics, am only skeptical of a particular scientist's findings, when there are logical and rational and proven justifications, to question their findings and motivation.

being skeptical of a theory, for purely political and ideological reasons, has no business in science. it is not the way of a true skeptic.

what this is called, is pseudo-skepticism. and from what I have read about your doubts regarding AGW, you follow the rules of pseudo-skepticism, to a T.
 
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I see,
so you are a true skeptic.
But you only become a skeptic once someone is shown to have 'lied' or acted with - shall we say - impropriety.
In the meantime you happily gobble up all that is sold to you.
That IS your version of skepticism?

The real estate is water front and the rising seas can't touch it. Primo quality! Can I give you a brochure?
 
I see,
so you are a true skeptic.
But you only become a skeptic once someone is shown to have 'lied' or acted with - shall we say - impropriety.
In the meantime you happily gobble up all that is sold to you.
That IS your version of skepticism?

let me show you, the definition of scientific skepticism:

"A scientific (or empirical) skeptic is one who questions the reliability of certain kinds of claims by subjecting them to a systematic investigation.[6] The scientific method details the specific process by which this investigation of reality is conducted. Considering the rigor of the scientific method, science itself may simply be thought of as an organized form of skepticism. This does not mean that the scientific skeptic is necessarily a scientist who conducts live experiments (though this may be the case), but that the skeptic generally accepts claims that are in his/her view likely to be true based on testable hypotheses and critical thinking."

and here, is the definition of pseudo-skepticism:

"The term pseudoskepticism was popularized and characterized by Marcello Truzzi in response to skeptics who, in his opinion, made negative claims without bearing the burden of proof of those claims.[9]
While a Professor of Sociology at Eastern Michigan University in 1987, Truzzi gave the following description of pseudoskeptics in the journal Zetetic Scholar which he founded:

"In science, the burden of proof falls upon the claimant; and the more extraordinary a claim, the heavier is the burden of proof demanded. The true skeptic takes an agnostic position, one that says the claim is not proved rather than disproved. He asserts that the claimant has not borne the burden of proof and that science must continue to build its cognitive map of reality without incorporating the extraordinary claim as a new "fact." Since the true skeptic does not assert a claim, he has no burden to prove anything. He just goes on using the established theories of "conventional science" as usual. But if a critic asserts that there is evidence for disproof, that he has a negative hypothesis --saying, for instance, that a seeming psi result was actually due to an artifact--he is making a claim and therefore also has to bear a burden of proof."

9-11 Truthers, are pseudo-skeptics.

Moon landing hoaxers, are pseudo-skeptics.

Holocaust deniers, are pseudo-skeptics.

and many AGW deniers, are also, pseudo-skeptics.
 
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And a fair call in all probability.

But to continue to 'believe' in the face of more and more contoversy, more and more scandal, more and more revealed untruths and/or mistakes seems contrary to even your definition of skepticism.

Can they all wear virgin white?
 
And a fair call in all probability.

But to continue to 'believe' in the face of more and more contoversy, more and more scandal, more and more revealed untruths and/or mistakes seems contrary to even your definition of skepticism.

you have already stated, that your skepticism is based on supposed political and monetary motivations of the scientists.

and as of yet, you have 100% failed to prove such accusations.

so, what EXACTLY is your skepticism based on? baseless accusations or a critical scientific analysis of the claims made by AGW?

Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie
That said, some of the science has been 'hijacked' (fwoaw) by some and extraordinary predictions have been made to further careers, make political points, obtain funding and so on.
 
And a fair call in all probability.

But to continue to 'believe' in the face of more and more contoversy, more and more scandal, more and more revealed untruths and/or mistakes seems contrary to even your definition of skepticism.

Can they all wear virgin white?

What 'more and more' are you talking about? What controversy? You've cherry picked some quotes from thousands of emails, and that's supposed to mean something?

I'm a little lost as to your 'more and more' claim. The only 'more and more' I've been seeing are more and more debunked, old, rehashed accusations about by global warming deniers and some new debunked accusations.
 
Does hitting the post reply button 1,000 times make a stupid, wrong, and utterly unscientific opinion legitimate?
 
Its a habit of his. He built up a really horrible strawmen of a significant number of posters on this forum and he refuses to support his evidence. He's also complained about his treatment on these forums.
I stopped debating him in another thread partly for that reason. He seems more intent on dodging analogies and constructing strawmen than he is on actually discussing the thread subject.

Does hitting the post reply button 1,000 times make a stupid, wrong, and utterly unscientific opinion legitimate?
No. But it gives you an extra life.
 
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Well this thread is actually about warmers changing position on this, not about why I have my beliefs. The funny thing is though that many others must have the same (or similar) thinking as I do.
Support is waning based on current trends.

Perhaps you good folk could explain why this is happening?
 
Well this thread is actually about warmers changing position on this, not about why I have my beliefs. The funny thing is though that many others must have the same (or similar) thinking as I do.
Support is waning based on current trends.

Perhaps you good folk could explain why this is happening?

Because people who don't understand the research, the scientific method, or colloquial communication will accept irrational, wrong, twisted arguments. Not everyone who believes in global warming does so for the right reasons, and thus are likely to change based on emotions or what have you.

That people support or do no support the argument has absolutely no baring on if the argument is valid.
 
http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2010/02/07/the-great-ipcc-meltdown-continues/

Posted on February 7th, 2010

The Great IPCC Meltdown Continues

It’s not just the threat of Himalayan glaciers disappearing by 2035.

Now another headline grabbing IPCC scare story is melting away. A report in Sunday’s London Times highlights new humiliations for the IPCC.

The most important is a claim that global warming could cut rain-fed north African crop production by up to 50% by 2020, a remarkably short time for such a dramatic change. The claim has been quoted in speeches by Rajendra Pachauri, the IPCC chairman, and by Ban Ki-moon, the UN secretary-general.

There is however one teensy-weensy little problem. As Professor Chris Field, the lead author of the IPCC’s climate impact team has now told reporters that he can find “no evidence” to support the claim in the IPCC’s 2007 report.

There’s more. When the glacier story broke, IPCC apologists returned over and over again to a saving grace. The bogus glacier report appeared in the body of the IPCC document, but not in the much more carefully vetted Synthesis Report, in which the IPCC’s senior leadership made its specific recommendations to world leaders. So it didn’t matter that much, the apologists told us, and we can still trust the rigorously checked and reviewed Synthesis Report.

But that’s where the African rain crisis prediction is found — in the supposedly sacrosanct Synthesis Report.
 
First, please show me where these have been debunked by independant parties.

Already been pointed out to you, more than once.






That includes police, parliaments et al.

Right, because you refuse to accept any "independant" [sic] opinions unless you get to cherry-pick the independent party regardless of applicability, expertise, or depth of knowledge. Creationists and 9/11 Truthers do the same thing.

No matter how many times someone points this out (or categorizes them accordingly), you keep using the same tired old tools.
 
It's one thing to have legitimate questions about whatever (in this case, AGW), it's another thing to so artfully dodge the answers that one is stuck clinging to a position that I can't see having any sort of useful resoloution.
If global warming is entirely a non-anthrogenic phenomenon, isn't it still in humanity's best interests to mitigate it?
Since the OP has been so completely answered, at what point do we (the members of this community) start to dismiss arguments?
It may be revealing and fuctionally educational to folks to know that there is a logical point at which certain arguments are simply going to be laughed at.
 
I agree and finally some honest discussion.
Thanks tyr13.
The opinion of 'the people' is not necessarily a reflection of the science (that said, it may be). The general population will glean their opinions from where? Newspapers, politicians etc. Yes?
Presumably the opinions of the people are changing because of these sources. Why are these sources changing attitudes?

And this is the heart of my question here.
Has Climategate (and other controversies) so undermined the credibility of AGW that we now see the general popuation start to lose interest (or belief) in its validity and truth?

If that be the case, what next?
Is it just Climategate?
The hypocrisy then failure of Copenhagen?
What exactly?
Why is this happening?
 
Already been pointed out to you, more than once.




Who produced these?
Obviously the production of these makes any further investigations unnecessary. That will save those powers a lot of money and time. I guess the whole thing can now be put to bed? :boggled:

If global warming is entirely a non-anthrogenic phenomenon, isn't it still in humanity's best interests to mitigate it?

Absolutely, but that isn't the question here.

Since the OP has been so completely answered, at what point do we (the members of this community) start to dismiss arguments?

What has been answered? Where has it been completely answered?
Have I missed something?
 
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Who produced these?
Obviously the production of these makes any further investigations unnecessary.

Now you sound like Acharya S (aka Dorothy Murdock) with the personal attacks when faced with a proper debunking. More nonsense and logical fallacy on your part. Address the debunking instead of the person doing the debunking.

That will save those powers a lot of money and time. I guess the whole thing can now be put to bed? :boggled:

You ask under the assumption that no one is out there scrutinizing and evaluating or investigating in the first place, which is just plain false as evidenced by BAC's own link where it shows scientists doing precisely that themselves. That scientists are the ones highlighting and exposing errors or miscalculations shows that what you're suggesting should happen already does, and you just refuse to accept it.
 
Now you sound like Acharya S (aka Dorothy Murdock) with the personal attacks when faced with a proper debunking. More nonsense and logical fallacy on your part. Address the debunking instead of the person doing the debunking.

You put them up as "independant". Are they or not?

You ask under the assumption that no one is out there scrutinizing and evaluating or investigating in the first place, which is just plain false as evidenced by BAC's own link where it shows scientists doing precisely that themselves. That scientists are the ones highlighting and exposing errors or miscalculations shows that what you're suggesting should happen already does, and you just refuse to accept it.

What a load of nonsense.
You keep putting these things up as the "final word" on this. Clearly it's not and it is you who refuse to acknowledge that there are further investigations going on because NOTHING has yet been answered to give a final resolution.
 
You put them up as "independant". Are they or not?

Independent from what? The scientists involved in the "climategate" stuff? Yes, this guy has been producing videos on more than just climate change and has been doing so for quite some time. A simple click over to the guy's channel page would have answered that. Being intellectually lazy is no excuse for the fallacies you use.

What a load of nonsense.
You keep putting these things up as the "final word" on this. Clearly it's not and it is you who refuse to acknowledge that there are further investigations going on because NOTHING has yet been answered to give a final resolution.

You're demanding a "final resolution" on a political pot-shot game, and you're ridiculously expecting there to be one. When has there ever been any political resolution on evolution versus creationism in the US? Does that have any bearing on the scientific validity of evolution? You're just manufacturing reasons to ignore experts because they don't match your "I don't know (even though I imply heavily against)" stance in ever single thread on the subject. Remember, you're the one continually failing to explain what the implications are supposed to mean dependent on the outcome of any current investigations-- conveniently leaving you the opening of shifting goalposts later.
 
Who produced these?
Obviously the production of these makes any further investigations unnecessary. That will save those powers a lot of money and time. I guess the whole thing can now be put to bed?

As it happens, they are produced by potholer54 (a youtube alias). He is a retired Australian science journalist; some of his background is explained in the first video of the series these are a part of. He can be reached through youtube messaging on his channel (I've exchanged emails with him on a different matter).
 
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