The War Against Christianity

[DARK LORD XENU]

You've just used creationist strawman argument-- Paleys watch... watches look designed... it's a common theistic backwards way of looking at it. And it's not at all in line with what science thinks. I'm not going to waste time educating you on this, but there are great answers on this thread regarding that long debunked straw man. To understand it, you might to unbrainwash yourself from your religious indoctrination a bit--but it's worth understanding if it's not too late.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94834

How do we know YOU have not been brainwashed?
The watch bit was just an example of what I meant also has science yet proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that God does not exist.
So please think carefully before trying to say others have been brainwashed just because they disagree with your beliefs.

 

[articulett]

In fact I now would like to pose the question that I posed Articulett earlier to everyone on this thread to explain why the big bang makes more sense than the book of Genesis.

I think this would be a good debate.

This has been answered more than sufficiently... and theists tend not to be able to register the answer anyhow... especially those without a common understanding of science and how science works. Genesis is like positing that aberrant behavior is caused by demon possession... science is like slow and steady accumulation of facts so that we understand more about how brain damage and chemicals and genetics and abuse correlate to aberrant behavior and thus address the problem in useful ways rather than exorcisms.

This kind of woo is discussed all over this forum--all the time and all over the web... any one who wants to know the answers can readily find it... but the people positing questions such as yourself--don't want the answers and can't hear them anyhow because they think they have the answer-- and the answer is the invisible entity that they've been indoctrinated to believe in. That IS NOT an answer. There is no evidence to support that as an answer. It's all argument from incredulity and insertion of god into the gaps. You should read more and comment less if you truly want the answers. You haven't offered up the amaziingly deep question you think you have... just a very tired old egotistical boring nothingness... like Iamme did here....

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102847

You have more to learn than you realize and less to teach than you think and there are people who will teach you if you are sincere in wanting to know the answers--but theists usually are not-- they are just sincere in wanting to prove their nebulous beliefs to be right via confirmation bias and semantics and faith. It's the same as Conspiracy theorists... just different woo.

 

[JoeEllison]

How do we know YOU have not been brainwashed?
The watch bit was just an example of what I meant also has science yet proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that God does not exist.
So please think carefully before trying to say others have been brainwashed just because they disagree with your beliefs.

Creationist illogic 101: can you prove without a shadow of a doubt that I'm not God? Can you absolutely prove that anything does not exist? Yes or no, don't dodge the question... or just admit that it is a silly position and we can move on.

 

[ThatSoundAgain]

Ok fair enough you do not share my beliefs thats cool.
All I mean is that in my opinion even the Bible cant always explain stuff like where we are from what we are made from etc at the same time Science still cant answer all the questions either.

Some, like me, prefer the answer "I don't know" to explanations that involve magic or otherwise seem implausible. In other words, no answer trumps any answer at all, if I don't find said answer satisfactory.

Example one day before the invention of the pocket watch or the wrist watch one day there was an explosion at a metal factory and as all the debris fell back to earth some of the debris landed in just the right spot in just the right way to accidentally create the worlds first watch without any one or any thing putting it together but it just happened!
Now that sound absurd to me as well I'm sue it is just as absurd to the rest of you.
That is why to me the big bang and evolution ON THERE OWN doesn't make any sense to me personally.

Watches don't self-replicate, so they're not a very good analogy to life as we know it. If you're talking about this planet, then take a look at how big the universe is, and that there are stars and planets in untold numbers. The surprising thing would be if there would not be a planet like ours - which we know can sustain life - somewhere.

Not trying to say your wrong I just disagree that everything in the universe just fell together the way it has without being put together by a creative God in some way whether it happened the way the Bible depicts it or not.

The stumbling block for me is that many of these arguments for theism just push the questions back further - if the objection is that the world is so complex that it needs a sentient creator, then surely that creator had to be even more complex and advanced. If so, then that creator would need an even more complex and powerful creator, and so on.

And hey, just for the record, call me wrong all you want, that's what discussion is implicitly all about. I only ask that you not be too disappointed if I'm not convinced by your arguments, and that you don't get nasty about it. I'll promise the same in turn.

 

[articulett]

How do we know YOU have not been brainwashed?
The watch bit was just an example of what I meant also has science yet proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that God does not exist.
So please think carefully before trying to say others have been brainwashed just because they disagree with your beliefs.

And science never will disprove god anymore than we will disprove fairies or disprove the existence of Zeus or disprove that the hijackers are having sex in heaven...

And most atheists thought pretty much like you at one time... a lot of theists too... but a basic education will allow you to see that whatever your beliefs are--they are no more verifiable than the Scientology or the beliefs you do not have...

Beliefs and opinions are one thing-- facts are another. 2+2=4 no matter what you believe or even if you never understood it... just as the earth was a sphere even as humans imagined it flat and no god stepped in to clue them in otherwise. Yes... your god might exist and so might Allah and so might thor or any number of pantheons... but so might engrams and thetans (scientology entities) and Xenu-- they are all invisible immeasurable and undetectable and none are more likely to be truer than any other. Not being able to understand how it could look so super duper amazing does not mean your invisible magic man is the answer... really. I'm not going to waste any more time on you because I will surely show why I find religion damaging and offensive.. it won't be pretty. I have tried to be nice--but you are as "impervious", "arrogant", and as "naive" as Iamme and many theists. I think you have been made stupid by your religion, and I'm glad I was able to think my way out before I became like you. You are luckier than you know to have stumbled across this forum where you can learn real facts like DNA... but only if you care about the truth that is objective and measurable and the same for everybody no matter what they believe. I guess you are a perfect example of why I think faith is bad... what is it good for and how has it made the world better for the people you inflict this on... where are the people made fabulous by faith? I just think it makes people like you... that depresses me. I mean how do you imagine you'd learn the facts if there really were no intelligent designer or if your bible was not inspired by any miraculous person at all-- how would the Muslim extremists learn or the Scientologists... what do you imagine would clue you in if you were wrong... It just seems like no amount of evidence or science or explanation is ever enough to dislodge whatever crazy faith people have managed to be indoctrinated with just so long as you also tell them that "faith is the key to salvation"-- it's... so... disturbing. You are as cultish or gullible sounding as those that you find cultish or wrong or believing in the wrong crazy things.

 

[Herzblut]

Only a "good debate" if you're new to the Internet and/or still in high school. Otherwise, you might as well be taking the "flat earth" position in a debate.

Well, in planning debates about new buildings, sports stadions, streets and so forth, the flat earth assertion is more or less prevalent. And you know what? In local maps, as well, flat earth is simply presumed!

You're right, that's all wrong and the curvature of the earth needs to be taken into account!

 

[DARK LORD XENU]

If I seemed like I was trying to be nasty I apologise.
BUT all these "answers" to me even though I understand what you all are trying to say BUT you have no convinced me at all.
In fact your sounding an awfull lot like some Christians I have known you start having a cry as soon as someone asks a question or offers a view thats not in the Bible.
The ONLY difference is hardcore Christians will point to the Bible saying everything in there is truth.
You lot are pointing to everything BUT the answer to my question as truth.
articulett your saying that I'm stupid and arrogant ow can you say that when you have not given me anything but arrogant bs that says me and any one who has faith in God are wrong evil arrogant idiots who cannot understand a basic scientific concept how do you know I'm not a scientist myself who just happens to believe in God

thatsoundagain sorry if I seemed nasty to you at all

joeellison if your God then I'm a mountain goat

 

[JoeEllison]

joeellison if your God then I'm a mountain goat

So, you understand why "you can't disprove it" is a foolish argument for your position?

 

[DARK LORD XENU]

Joe I was not trying to say that just because you cannot disprove God is my argument at all I was using that as a small part of it in the sense that it is wrong to say someone who believes in God is arrogant and stupid just because no one can prove or disprove the existance of God.

Same basic argument can be used on Aliens theory states that there has to be life some where in the universe but as yet E.T has not been found and the point I tried making is that just because God has not been proven through science to be real does not mean that there is no God.

Further as I said in my last post I never tried being nasty and if I have offended any of you I aplogise BUT I'm not going sit here and be told I'm arrogant and stupid for my beliefs.

 

[JoeEllison]

Joe I was not trying to say that just because you cannot disprove God is my argument at all I was using that as a small part of it in the sense that it is wrong to say someone who believes in God is arrogant and stupid just because no one can prove or disprove the existance of God.

Same basic argument can be used on Aliens theory states that there has to be life some where in the universe but as yet E.T has not been found and the point I tried making is that just because God has not been proven through science to be real does not mean that there is no God.

Further as I said in my last post I never tried being nasty and if I have offended any of you I aplogise BUT I'm not going sit here and be told I'm arrogant and stupid for my beliefs.

You're certainly going to have to sit there and be told that you're dead wrong and not adding anything to anyone's knowledge... or you can leave. Those are your only choices. You haven't shown any insight or intelligence on this subject. You certainly haven't presented any idea that is new, interesting, or original.

You can't prove that I'm not God. Do you then accept that I am God? No?

Then why shouldn't you accept that saying "you can't disprove God" is a useless statement from you, that gives us no reason to accept your claims as worthy of consideration?

 

[SezMe]

Well, in planning debates about new buildings, sports stadions, streets and so forth, the flat earth assertion is more or less prevalent. And you know what? In local maps, as well, flat earth is simply presumed!

You're right, that's all wrong and the curvature of the earth needs to be taken into account!

Nominated for non sequitur of the year. Good luck, Herzblut.

 

[DARK LORD XENU]

Well Joe I may not have GRAND INTUITVIE INSIGHT like athiests are meant to but at the same I could turn it back onto you.

What have you offered up to convince me that the big bang makes more sense than genesis.

All I have gotten is the type of argument for asking why the big bang and atheism is more logical than believing in God.

Well I will admit those of us who do believe in God are not perfect and sure the Church has done some awfull stuff like the inquisition but at the same time most of us mean no harm.
Unfotunately science gave us stuff like the atomic bomb.

Also please tell me without a argument why does the big bang make more sense to YOU than the Bible.

No one here as actually told me that without a stupid argument.

Now ask yourself what caused the big bang? what created the earth you live on? All I asked is why is God NOT in the equation?

 

[JoeEllison]

*yawn*

Just one question: do you really think you have something new, original, or interesting to add to the discussion?

 

[articulett]

It's arrogant because you are claiming to know a magical secret of the universe via divine means or faith or feelings or whatever it is that causes you to believe in whatever magical things you believe in... It's arrogant the way Scientology is arrogant or that Sylvia Browne or Astrology or Joe's example that he is god is arrogant. iIt's arrogant the way someone who has a delusion that he really is getting revelations from god is arrogant... It posits an "objective truth" that you've obtained through subjective means... one that no amount of evidence can sway... it's the same kind of arrogance that made the hijackers sure that they were doing Allah's will... it's based on nothing... you are claiming to have a divine truth that is based on no more than all the divine truths you reject.

An atheists doesn't believe in divine truths... or certainly not that there's any reason to trust that you have them or that there's any way of teasing out whether your nebulous magical supernatural truth is more likely to be true than Tom Cruises or Maatorc's or all the conspiracy theorists. Is there? Is your whole magical story supported by the fact that you don't understand how things can seem to fit together so well? Why should we take you more seriously than all the other woo that come here...? why should we think you have some divine truth or intelligence or wisdom or anything at all to offer... why do you imagine we should be interested in your opinion, when you show no interest in people who take the time to really give you detailed answers to begin to answer the questions you ask... even as we know that you never wanted an answer--you just wanted to prop up your belief. I'm going to put you on ignore for the same reason I put plumjam on ignore. I'm sure if you say something useful or valuable, someone smart (who writes more legibly and coherently than you) will quote it... I see no reason to listen to your woo and pedantry and arrogance and judgment more than anyone else's. I can't imagine you have anything other than egocentrism and stupidity of faith to bring to the table on the subject or that your opinion is more valuable than people who are clearly much smarter, nicer, funnier, educated, scientifically literate, and more socially adept than you... friends... people I've grown to know and respect here.... because they are honest and smart and humble and really eager to help people learn in a way that you are too stupid to appreciate... because you believe that preaching and faith are good for something.

That's the meme I find so damaging and stupefying and arrogance promoting. Do you have any facts to support whatever fairytale you believe? Because scientists have lots of facts-- it's just that those who have a magical answer can't learn them because they'd rather believe in the truth in their head than to understand they may have been fooling themselves. I think everyone should look at you and plumjam and Iamme and DOC and Tai... and really wonder about what sort of world they are creating by pretending propping up the notion that faith is a good or a means to "higher truths".

See, Kmortis... this is on a skeptics forum... should this be treated differently than any other woo? Do you really want to be inadvertently propping up this kind of thinking in the name of tolerance... If faith is good... extreme faith is better, right? Ryan... and others who urge this coddling of religionists... can't you see that this is the result?... and increasingly stupid and arrogant and extreme versions of this in an effort to prove that they have the most faith and that they are the favorite of the right invisible guy? Shall we coddle the moderate astrology believers and conspiracy theorists and homeopaths too? Stupidity in our fellow humans coupled with arrogance can be very dangerous.

For women it tends to be oppressive and depressing and fear promoting--

For men it tends to give fuel to craziness allowing them to reinterpret it as righteousness.

It certainly doesn't fit well with critical thinking and there is no reason to defend it... even the moderate versions... if it's good for something, I think we can see and determine that for ourselves.

It's not a skeptics job to disprove woo or whatever magical invisible things or conspiracies people believe in... it's up to those believing in magic or supernatural or divine things to bring evidence to the table. We cannot prove to a delusional person that they are delusional. We can only show that there is no reason to suspect the voices they hear or the people they see or the things they believe have a basis in objective reality.

 

[JoeEllison]

I'm about to offer Joe's Ten Dollar Challenge... to anyone who can present a unique and novel argument for their particular bit of superstitious beliefs and/or "holy" book, that we haven't seen in a thread here in the last 6 months.

 

[joobz]

I'm about to offer Joe's Ten Dollar Challenge... to anyone who can present a unique and novel argument for their particular bit of superstitious beliefs and/or "holy" book, that we haven't seen in a thread here in the last 6 months.

I was told by my nipples that god is in alaska. I know this to be true because my poop was green.

 

[JoeEllison]

I was told by my nipples that god is in alaska. I know this to be true because my poop was green.

Sorry, that one was used today at 12:26 AM...

You have to actually have an argument, not just a statement or description of what you saw the last time you picked mushrooms off of cow patties.

 

[articulett]

I was told by my nipples that god is in alaska. I know this to be true because my poop was green.

And since we cannot give you a good or convincing argument why this is incorrect or how god is not in Alaska, it must be true.

Hallelujah --this faith thing is fun!

 

[joobz]

Sorry, that one was used today at 12:26 AM...

You have to actually have an argument, not just a statement or description of what you saw the last time you picked mushrooms off of cow patties.

OK, I shall amend my point

I was told by my nipples that god is in alaska. I know this to be true because my poop was green. Therefore, You're wrong.

 

[JoeEllison]

OK, I shall amend my point

I was told by my nipples that god is in alaska. I know this to be true because my poop was green. Therefore, You're wrong.

I'll have to take it to the judges...

This is certainly more entertaining than any of the "real" arguments that the god botherers come up with.