The War Against Christianity

So, let me get this straight. A Christian walks into a church and shoots up some other Christians - and this is a war against Christianity how exactly?

It sounds like a lone nut. If it is a war, it's a civil one. Don't be expecting to form an alliance with the elves, as they're helping the atheists build up some defences before the storming of Minas Randith.
 
Sefarst said:
I didn't realize it was Ted Haggard's old church. That place has got some bad luck.

Does anyone else find it strange that the Church has security guards? I've been to many churches, including several large and wealthy ones, and I've never seen one with their own security. Nevertheless, I guess it's good they did.
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The church took on extra security as a result of word about the first shooting in Arvada the nigh/early morning before. The guard who confronted this person was a female member of the church who offers her security services to the church pro bono. [My opinion: Apparently a good shot, too. In an interview she confessed to being scared when she heard the shots, but she did what police have always done.]

The man in question is/was a Christian; he was a student at the Arvada missionary in the past. His family, living in Englewood, CO, is described as devoutly Christian. His father is a surgeon.

The two killed in Colorado Springs were sisters, 16 and 18 years old. Their father was also shot and is in the hospital, and is expected to live.

For those who don't happen to know, Colorado Springs is a hotbed of evangelistic protestantism. This is due to many reasons: it has always been known as a great place to retire, and many military who pass through the area in service often return there (it is home of the US Air Force Academy, Peterson AFB, Falcon AFB, the North American Air Defense Command (NORAD) and Ft. Carson Army base). Conservatism is really rampant there; Focus on the Family and many other evangelical orgs, large and small, are based there. More churches per square yard than almost anywhere this side of the Atlantic. And it's still a great place to live, though it's sprawling like a floozy at a kegger. He likely had some sort of ties to people down there, though why he'd want to shoot it up, I have no idea. Who can fathom that sort of mind?
 
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Ladewig said:
I don't think I would label it "Typical Christian Hypocrisy," but I might label it hypocrisy given that Jesus clearly and unequivocally stated that one should always turn the other cheek. Of course, I could be completely wrong in that viewpoint. I am curious as to how you see it, Fnord. Do you think there should be limits to "turn the other cheek"? Do you think it is outdated? Is there some other reason why you chose the exact opposite of what Jesus taught?
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Exactly Jesus was not at all against violence, he did declare that those who would not do as he command be brought before him and executed.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Exactly Jesus was not at all against violence, he did declare that those who would not do as he command be brought before him and executed.
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And there was that also that bit about "bringing the sword" and others. He's only the Prince of Peace if you engage in a selective reading of the Bible. If you read the whole thing, it kind of falls apart.
 
Fnord said:
Sorta reminds me of the time I threw someone through a plate-glass window after he and his buddies attacked me for bringing a Bible to school.

They left me alone after that, but used my act of self-defense as "evidence" for "Typical Christian Hypocrisy."
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I won't criticize the action you describe, but I will say that it is not truly an act of self-defense, and that it is hypocrisy coming from someone who is defending the religion of "blessed are they who are persecuted for righteousness' sake" and "love your enemy" and "turn to him the other [cheek] also" and "forgive not seven times but seven times seventy."

It sounds like your human dignity got the better of your Christianity... Kudos for that!


Christians are "fighting back"? Against other Christians? That doesn't sound very christian to me.
 
Oh, poor baby Fnord. All that persecution and stuff. So Fnord, how about a hardy, "Okay, I was wrong?" Could it be you simply lack the honesty and integrity to acknowledge that you made a dumb mistake here? Or maybe you're a little too embarrassed by your knee-jerk display of paranoia to come back and participate in the discussion you started? :)
 
scotth said:
And there was that also that bit about "bringing the sword" and others. He's only the Prince of Peace if you engage in a selective reading of the Bible. If you read the whole thing, it kind of falls apart.
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Of course it will be peacefully, once everyone does exactly as they are told by our lord and savior, everything will be perfect.

Remember Christianity, putting the Total in Totalitarian, you never get out of the Lords Gulag.
 
I predict this story will quietly die, since it seems pretty clear this guy was a Christian himself. If the shooter _had_ been an Atheist or Theist of any other stripe (i.e. Jew, Muslim, etc) I shudder to think of the magnitude of the Christian persecution PR campaign.

I am always amazed that this persecution mentality can exist in a country that is 80% or more Christian.
 
They'll still say this was the result of the war on Christianity. It's not like they're locked into a rational worldview.
 
Fnord said:
It's now a shooting war, as both sides have opened fire.

LINK

We're often ridiculed for being weak-minded victims. Now we'll be ridiculed for being gun-toting hypocrites.

Sorta reminds me of the time I threw someone through a plate-glass window after he and his buddies attacked me for bringing a Bible to school.

They left me alone after that, but used my act of self-defense as "evidence" for "Typical Christian Hypocrisy."
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Well, at least you get to run for presidential elections.
 
Okay, okay, so fnord let fly with a premature, immature volley. Perhaps (I only say perhaps) he was referring to that armed Chrrristian woman who put a window in the shooter. Maybe that's all he meant by fighting back.

Anybody who plans a shooting war on Xtians in the U.S. had better bring puh-lenty of iron to the fight, because they've got 80% of the population and who knows what percentage of the guns.

Haven't we heard before about fnord throwing somebody through a window? Must have been a defining life moment for him.
 
sackett said:
Okay, okay, so fnord let fly with a premature, immature volley. Perhaps (I only say perhaps) he was referring to that armed Chrrristian woman who put a window in the shooter. Maybe that's all he meant by fighting back.

Anybody who plans a shooting war on Xtians in the U.S. had better bring puh-lenty of iron to the fight, because they've got 80% of the population and who knows what percentage of the guns.

Haven't we heard before about fnord throwing somebody through a window? Must have been a defining life moment for him.
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That's exactly what I thought he meant. It still doesn't fit into the persecution complex meme because the attacker was Christian. I think he assumed the attacker must be a non-Christian, which was a very large leap.
 
For the record, the news is now reporting that he might not have been Christian. Between shootings, he apparently got on some message board and made some posts about being angry at Christians and hating them. It's not clear if he had actually left Christianity completely and gone atheist or if he had embraced some other religion. Or he may have still been Christian, but just angry at the hypocrisy he saw.
 
IIRC, Dawkins once said that good people do good and bad people do bad but it takes religion for good people to do bad. Religion may allow a cynical few to coerce sheepish obedience from the crowd but this type of tragedy is almost certainly an unintended consequence of this tool taken too far. The perp wanted to belong to this group who served a god that would torture him in eternity if he failed. He failed. What unpredictable and inappropriate actions is a person who still believes the lie but is denied the remedy capable of?

Unless truly deranged, I can't see an atheist building up that much rancor, animosity or malevolence as to take out anyone but his/herself.
 
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