The Walmart Cometh

[CapelDodger]

...To our quaint little town...
The 'Walmart' subject is probably not worth opening a new thread but here it is. Feel free to take a break from big city politics and the war in Iraq to indulge in small town America.

As the saying goes, all politics is local. This is the sort of issue that impacts on people much more than, say, riots in Jalalabad. It might prompt some people - particularly local business-people - to have second thoughts about small government and the primacy of the market. It'll be interesting to see how this works out.

Do Walmart have a fall-back position after a "Yes" vote, such as recalling the entire council for a full election or appeal to the Supreme Court?

 

[CapelDodger]

I'm not saying they would be successful competing against them, only that they are open to trying. Target, JC Penny, Mervyn's, Sears and KMart are certainly giving it a go.

That gives a whole new meaning to "you have nothing to lose but your chains".

 

[Orwell]

Unions are bad for business and bad for the economy. The only thing unions are good for are the few thugs that get the select union jobs. They artificially inflate wages causing prices to rise and employment to go down. The minimum wage does the same thing.

******** of the highest degree. And you just slandered millions of unionised workers all over the US and the world.

I find it hard to believe how easily this kind of blatant far-right propaganda is spouted around here, without anyone batting an eye!

 

[LostAngeles]

In the Boston area, the arrival of Wal-mart hastened the shutdown of Bradlees, Ames, and Caldor's. Caldor's I really liked. I liked going to the one in Norwell when it still had its 70's rainbow of brown and orange, but I digress from having already made my point.

 

[Orwell]

World Bank backs trade unions!

"Workers who belong to trade unions earn higher wages, work fewer hours, receive more training, and have longer job tenure on average, than their non-unionized counterparts, according to a new World Bank study on the effects of unions and collective bargaining in the global economy.

On the other hand, temporary layoffs can be more frequent in unionized firms. At the macroeconomic level, high unionization rates lead to lower inequality of earnings and can improve economic performance (in the form of lower unemployment and inflation, higher productivity and speedier adjustment to shocks)."

Also, union safety reps are often your best defence (if not your only defence) against work-related accidents and ill-health.

 

[CapelDodger]

I find it hard to believe how easily this kind of blatant far-right propaganda is spouted around here, without anyone batting an eye!

You'll also hear talk of the socialist hell that was the 50's and 60's, before Hayek and the apostles Reagan and Thatcher saved us from ourselves.

(I'm not by nature a joiner, but I am a Union man.)

 

[Bob Klase]

I'd like to see some of the ads running against Walmart for comparison. It's pretty rare in a political issue that one side runs propaganda and the other side just lays out the facts in an honest manner.

 

[Sushi]

In the Boston area, the arrival of Wal-mart hastened the shutdown of Bradlees, Ames, and Caldor's. Caldor's I really liked. I liked going to the one in Norwell when it still had its 70's rainbow of brown and orange, but I digress from having already made my point.

Huh, guess customers preferred to shop at Wal-mart...

 

[Kopji]

First things first...

BPSCG
Where's Flagstaff's diversity? Did y'all run the uppity black folks outta town for leering at white women?

Hey nice trolling. If you look into the subject at more than a superficial and shallow way, you'd find that Flagstaff is a crossroads community where people shop from a region that encompass an area about the size of New England.

Quite a lot of people who live here or nearby are Navajo or Hopi. There is also a large Hispanic community in Flagstaff.

Correct, not many black people though, I don't know why. Maybe it's that Arizona is not much of a welfare state. (Sorry that was sarcasm.) Racism is so in your face.
Or maybe the local Injuns don't like 'em and try to scalp em.
(Racism is ignorant too, it's got it all).

Whatever, yesterday's paper takes a new tack. I'm afraid this completely refutes BPSCG's claim we are racist.
Or maybe it supports the idea that we are racist if big box Wal-mart is rejected. I dunno. I think we've been insulted though.

HAVE YOU EVER ASKED YOURSELF WHAT A FLAGSTAFF IS?

It is a "staff on which a color or distinguishing flag is carried." It
marks a place as being unique, as standing for some particular
freedom, right or value.
Across America we are known as a unique and special place.
In Flagstaff we don't tell you what books you can choose to read,
where you can choose to worship, or what you can choose to say.
And in Flagstaff we don't tell you where or how you choose to shop.
Prop 100 limits choices and will increase the cost of living for those of us who can least afford it.
Prop 100 doesn't stand for freedom, rights or values that belong in Flagstaff.

Vote NO on prop 100. Choice is a freedom worth keeping.

Paid for by Protect Flagstaff's Future - Major funding by Wal-Mart (Bentonville, AR)

Friday's photo is a little more mellow, but the flag definitely looks like it could be burning.
Btw, this is now national news and Wal-mart has apologized for the Sunday ad with the Nazis. I mistakenly thought the ad was in Tuesday's paper, but it was Sunday. Recycle pickup is Monday so it is long gone. Apologies to the early morning joggers and I promise to cut them down real soon.

The election btw, is by mail balloting. The city sends the ballots to city residents who check the one little box yes or no, sign the back, and send it back in. The votes will be counted Tuesday.

This process does illustrate an unfairness in this process, and as much as I hate to admit it BPSCG has a point well taken. Flagstaff itself if an expensive place to live, but much of the Wal-mart shopping is done by non residents who are not part of the voting process. Wal-mart wants this money and city services though, which is presumably why they are not building in 'Gap' Arizona.

 

[Kopji]

pesky digital camera batteries...

 

[Kopji]

Bob Klase
I'd like to see some of the ads running against Walmart for comparison. It's pretty rare in a political issue that one side runs propaganda and the other side just lays out the facts in an honest manner.

Good point. Rather dull by comparison. I can't recall ads by either side before this week.
The text reads:

Citizens memo
To: Out-of-town Developers
From: Citizens of Flagstaff

Flagstaff citizens are good people. We are tolerant,
open minded and try to be fair -- especially
when important issues are being debated.

But your campaign has crossed over the line of decency.
You have thrown mud at our Mayor and City Council,
offended our military veterans and lied to our families.
And you have compared honest, decent people we've
known all our lives to Hitler's Nazi's
Any why?
To make Flagstaff a better place in which to live, work, and raise a family?
No.
You just want to make money at our expense - without caring what it costs our community.
That may be normal for you, but in Flagstaff, we call that "greed"

Please support Flagstaff.
Vote YES...
Paid for by yesforflagstaff.com, major funding by Grand Canyon Trust, Friends of Flagstaff's future, Arizona League of Conservation voterseducation fund.

 

[Rob Lister]

pesky digital camera batteries...

They're probably going to win, Kopji. If not this year, next. If not within your city limits, just outside. They will open their store, they will drive many smaller business' out. They might close it once those business' are gone, while closing another one twenty miles away in the next town, and then open one right in the middle. Close enough to both towns that customers from both will find it worthwhile to drive the distance and local forces will not find it worthwhile to re-compete.

If I lived in a small town, I'm not sure how I'd vote. I like free market forces but the downside of walmart in a small town is that it can pretty much kill all other competeing business' within it.

 

[Kopji]

In case we are tempted to view these things in black and white terms...
Walmart is the #1 private employer in Arizona.

The provider of these delightful ads that threaten to put satirists out of work is a democrat named Delia Garcia 34, a Harvard Graduate from a working class family who was relocated to Phoenix by Wal-mart to do marketing here.

 

[Kopji]

Rob Lister
They're probably going to win, Kopji. If not this year, next. If not within your city limits, just outside.

And I agree. This vote may devolve into a sort of 'we don't like these kinds of ads' protest.

A good portion of Wal-mart shoppers here are the poorest of the poor - MUCH poorer than most black folks in the US - the Native Americans. I can't really see a good reason for denying people a place to buy things they can afford.

Walmart has some work to do with public relations though.

 

[Solitaire]

Managers are bad for business and bad for the economy.
The only thing managers are good for are the few thugs
that get the select management jobs. They artificially inflate
wages causing prices to rise and employment to go down.
The maximum wage does the same thing.

If anyone doubts this, tell them to look at United Airlines.

 

[username]

I was ready, until yesterday, to just vote "no". I don't like Walmart much, but I like free market forces more, and see them as a good long term thing. Except for yesterday's paper.

Don't sweat it, it doesn't matter how you vote. If Walmart wants to open a store then Walmart will open a store.

Walmart will simply keep trying, they are in no hurry because they are engaged in 'battles' like this all over the nation. Some they win, some they lose and they continue to open stores at the rate they wish. In other words they propose opening more stores each year than they can actually open precisely because they won't be able to get approval for all of them.

They will just try again and again. It wouldn't surprise me if they propose to another local community nearby opening a store there (even if they don't intend to open the store there. It is just designed to tell your community that Walmart *is* coming to town and either your community can get the increased tax base or your neighbor can.

These people know what they are doing, the vote is pointless. Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated.

 

[WildCat]

Unions are bad for business and bad for the economy. The only thing unions are good for are the few thugs that get the select union jobs.

As a college business professor of mine used to say, bad management creates unions in the first place.

 

[WildCat]

******** of the highest degree. And you just slandered millions of unionised workers all over the US and the world.

I find it hard to believe how easily this kind of blatant far-right propaganda is spouted around here, without anyone batting an eye!

Oh, get over yourself. There are bad unions! Many large labor unions have cozied up to mobsters and other unsavory characters, who funnel union money a select few criminals and outsiders. Just do a little research on the Teamsters.

And unions aren't really "pro-worker". They only care about union workers. If 10 people have to lose their jobs so one union job is protected, that's just fine w/ the union, which is why they oppose free trade policies.

 

[WildCat]

Frankly, I much prefer shopping at a big box store than a small mom & pop store. And it has little to do w/ prices, it's because when I shop I don't like mom or pop hovering over me asking "can I help you" when I just would like to browse the items and compare and contrast them myself. I don't like the pressure one often finds in smaller stores.

 

[Orwell]

Oh, get over yourself. There are bad unions! Many large labor unions have cozied up to mobsters and other unsavory characters, who funnel union money a select few criminals and outsiders. Just do a little research on the Teamsters.

And unions aren't really "pro-worker". They only care about union workers. If 10 people have to lose their jobs so one union job is protected, that's just fine w/ the union, which is why they oppose free trade policies.

Sure there where (and are) bad unions. So what? My student's union just negotiated with my University to obtain a pay raise for all the university T.A. grad students. It was small raise, but still better than nothing. Alone, I would have been unable to do such a thing and I would have been totally at the mercy of the whims of my supervisor and my department. This is what unions are for.

Funny thing about free trade: all emergent economies start by protecting their internal markets. That's what the Chinese are doing. That's what the Japanese and the Koreans did. That's what both Canada and the US did in the past. It is only when governments and business feel that their economy is strong enough to withstand foreign competition (and when they feel that there is a buck to be made with cheaper foreign labour) that they're all for free trade.