• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

The virtually free fall speed

1000 degrees? I'll accept that. But for a short period of time, you must admit that.

What short time? ---- ETA - Ignore that question, misread your first statement.


Typically, it can be short, but it also can be sustained through burning fires. If you are talking about one room in one small area of the building, then yes I could agree that it would be very unlikely that that would have caused the collapse of WTC7, but that isn't the case in this situation. We are looking at several areas throughout the entire building being effected for several hours.

Fires are very stubborn things, and they simply refuse to burn when the fuel source has been consumed. And the fuel source in the upper floors of WTC7 was office contents - desks, chairs, carpet, paper.

Which are all synthetics that tend to have a lower flame point and have a higher amount of energy release. We aren't taking about one room, but several floors and offices, which are packed full of these things.

And brief periods of 1000 degree F heat is not sufficient to compromise the massive steel beams to failure mode. Again I call your attention to the properties of steel, which wicks heat away from the fire and dissipates it all directions through out the structure.

That is simply untrue, while steel does conduct heat away, it uniformly heats up at the same time. Conduction does not create a cooling effect at all in a burning fire. When steel is heated to certain temperatures it gradually reduces its strength, but not only that it expands. At a 1000 degrees F you are looking at a significant amount of strength loss. (there was chart that showed exactly what percentage was lost, but I can't seem to find it right now)

Many other much hotter and longer burning high rise fires have not resulted in the catastrophic collapse as WTC7.

Though true, one can not compare one steel structure to another and have that be universal. There are more variables that introduced with WTC7 than compared to the Madrid fire or your neighbors house, which include but are not limited to type construction and fire load.

Sorry I can't post some of my tasty comparison photos, but I'm a newbie

If you have a link, that would be nice.



ETA - Typos and missing information. Lack of sleep is bad for the brain.
 
Last edited:
1000 degrees? I'll accept that. But for a short period of time, you must admit that.

NYCEMT86 understated. 1000°C (1800F) is common in vigorous building fires. But, as s/he correctly stated, convection and radiation from other nearby fires will maintain high local temperatures even when the local fuel supply is exhaused. And the non-combustible materials also retain heat.
 
Selective quoting is your game, eh?

You conveniently missed the rest of my retort:

"But hey, what about that free fall thingie?

1/5 of the building falling as fast as a bowling ball dropped out of a Cessna?

I know you wish you could continue to deny that physically impossible fact. It's just not fair that NIST was forced to admit it, right there in their NCSTAR1 Report."

So, what about it?

GrimFandango, a quick question before I decide whether it's a productive use of my time to discuss this with you:

Do you understand the concept of measurement error? If so, can you briefly describe what it is?

Dave
 
I never said it fell 100% at free fall, I quoted NIST’s report that 105 feet, or 8 stories of the total 47 stories collapsed at pure free fall – that’s 20% of the building’s height that fell at the speed of an object dropped over the side of a building and falling through nothing but air! [/COLOR]


First, "pure free fall" is only possible in vacuum.

Second, do you become to this conclusion by analyzing a video?

That's like saying that a tennis ball has the same size as a basketball using Google Earth.

But this is just a detail, at the original post I said the collapse at almost free fall speed is consistent with the scenario of a structural collapse due to instability of the structure caused by successive failures of connections and formation of plastic hinges.

And the reality of this admission by NIST is – it is a physical impossibility for 8 massive football field sized floors of a steel framed structure to drop 105 feet at pure free fall – that is, without some well placed and synchronized cutter charges.


You miss these parts from OP:

a structure initially hyperstatic (i.e. redundant, as every building is) has become a mechanism, i.e. a structure that's unable to keep itself in static balance.


and

we are talking about frame structures that are no longer able to keep in static balance, due to successive structural failures.



And they do not prove how the admitted free fall of WTC7 could have happened, because they would have to re-write Newton's Laws first, and then make up some nonsensical new theory, like their quietly retired "Thermal Expansion" theory... or their "Pancake Theory"... remember those knee-slappers?.


Tell me why they would have to re-write Newton's Laws? You know what you are saying or are you just repeating what the truther's manual says.
 
Last edited:
I never said it fell 100% at free fall, I quoted NIST’s report that 105 feet, or 8 stories of the total 47 stories collapsed at pure free fall – that’s 20% of the building’s height that fell at the speed of an object dropped over the side of a building and falling through nothing but air!

And the reality of this admission by NIST is – it is a physical impossibility for 8 massive football field sized floors of a steel framed structure to drop 105 feet at pure free fall – that is, without some well placed and synchronized cutter charges.

You're confused new guy. Nowhere does NIST state that 8 entire floors collapsed at freefall. Only a PORTION of the NORTH FACE'S FACADE was in freefall.


The papers published by the government drones are mostly fluff, with contradictory nonsense pumped up with helium to appear scientific, and appear to prove something, which they do not. The bottom line of all of these wonderful papers is, "a Global Collapse ensued" - great stuff!

They do not prove how diesel


I cited about a dozen papers that all appeared in respectable, peer-reviewed journals, and you think all we have is a government report? Go read those and many of the others that I linked to. You will find may of them come from people in other countries.

BTW, did you seriously bring up diesel fuel? LOL!! That was disproved by NIST years ago.

and office contents fire can produce molten steel, which was reported by numerous first responders and reporters on the scene,

And none of them are trined metalurgists. As I told Tempes, there are dozens of things that could have been molten in the towers. Glass, aluminum, tin, lead, etc. All of them can glow bring orange when hot. Can you rule out any of these possibilities? No, of course not.

And, do you have any physical evidence of this solidified steel?


as steel needs 1000 degrees greater temperature than the temperatures that NIST has admitted were present – NIST accounts for this temperature discrepancy by denying the numerous reports of molten steel, to wit: – John Gross and his disingenuous statements that “I never heard of anyone mentioning molten steel”. What a bald faced liar – there are numerous written and recorded report of exactly that – molten steel in the basements of all 3 towers.

See above.

And they do not prove how the admitted free fall of WTC7 could have happened, because they would have to re-write Newton's Laws first, and then make up some nonsensical new theory, like their quietly retired "Thermal Expansion" theory... or their "Pancake Theory"... remember those knee-slappers?.

Show us the math that proves it wrong.

PS. Thermal Expansion is not a new theory.

Thermal Expansion has appeared on the LT's test for FDNY for many years.
http://books.google.com/books?id=KJ...lient=firefox-a#v=snippet&q=expansion&f=false

Here is a paper about steel trusses in fires.
http://fire-research.group.shef.ac.uk/Downloads/SC_Baltimore.pdf

It's rather educational. You should read it, and try to understand it.

Are you serious? Do you know what symmetrical means?


Yes, do you?

All 3 “collapses” were symmetrical. It almost makes some sense with WTC1 and WTC2, as the buildings were in themselves, symmetrical, or square, lending themselves to a symmetrical failure.

Ok.

But WTC7 was asymmetrical, a trapezoid of 330 feet on the long side, and 140 feet on the 2 short sides. For this asymmetrical structure to collapse symmetrically calls for a failure of all steel columns, simultaneously, or it would have crumbled on edge, and then fallen horizontally –

Wait, you think it should have fallen like a tree? LOL!! You do realize this is a steel framed building, right?

It tiled to the north as it fell. How do you explain that and still use the word "symmectrical"? See the pictures in this thread.

which by the way NIST actually called the collapse a horizontal collapse, when all videos show a vertical collapse, straight down, not side to side.

Except for the lean.

What types of chemicals were used is open to discussion, there may have been a new unknown chemical used along with some conventional stuff – if it’s the government, they have access to military inventions that we find out about 10 years after they have already used them.


Appeal to the unknown.

However, protected samples of WTC dust have been analyzed to contain unreacted Nano Thermite, a compound of extreme velocity and heat, and available only from government labs.

Nano-thermite still produces LESS heat than the samples do.

It fell as straight down as the very best of controlled demolitions that have ever been performed.


Well, the lean.....do you keep forgetting about it?

It did not hit “two of the buildings”, the Verizon Building on its West side, and the US Post Office building on its East side incurred only very minor cosmetic damage, mostly from the debris from WTC1, and are still in use today after minor repairs. The 47 story WTC7 was reduced to a 3 story heap in 7 short seconds, 20% of which were actual free fall

The Verizon Building sustained substantial damage. The building took 3 years to repair. However, how much of that was from 7WTC we don't know, because they did other renovations also.

The Post office, (90 Church Street) was closed also for about 3 years, and suffered 17 million dollars in damage.

http://wirednewyork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3661&page=1

http://www.nyc-architecture.com/LM/LM068.htm

http://www.newsday.com/news/historic-post-office-to-reopen-1.730543
Reopened in 2004.

The fires moved from fuel source to fuel source, burning themselves out as they moved to other areas, Once the fire moves on, the steel returns to normal temperatures rapidly, as steel is an excellent conductor of heat.


You obviously don't understand fire. Just because it moves to a different area, doesn't mean that the previous area goes back to room temperature. The heat is still in the area, and will continue to heat the beams.


No fire burned in one spot long enough to elevate the steel to anywhere near failure mode.

No fire burned to 1800 deg. F?

Again, you don't understand fire.


It’s on, baby

I eagerly await your paper. Do you need help with the abstract?
 
That's a chunk of WTC1

And please notice, that even though WTC5 stood even closer to the collapse of WTC1 that WTC7 did, it did not collapse. There is a massive hole in the middle, but the side walls are still intact, all the way to the roof.

Unlike the tragic, ill-fated, over-insured WTC7, which completely collapsed from 47 to 3 stories in 7 seconds.

Minus about 10-12 seconds for the penthouse collapses.

WTC5 also suffered internal collapses. Do you understand center of gravity?
 
1000 degrees? I'll accept that. But for a short period of time, you must admit that. Fires are very stubborn things, and they simply refuse to burn when the fuel source has been consumed. And the fuel source in the upper floors of WTC7 was office contents - desks, chairs, carpet, paper.

Yes, hydrocarbons, which can and will produce a temperature of 1800 deg. F. very quickly.

Let me guess, you think 20 minute burn times, don't you?

And brief periods of 1000 degree F heat is not sufficient to compromise the massive steel beams to failure mode.

But extended perriods of 1000 deg. F heat is, when you couple that with the 1800-2000 deg. F peaks.

Again I call your attention to the properties of steel, which wicks heat away from the fire and dissipates it all directions through out the structure.

Thermal expansion, google it.

Many other much hotter and longer burning high rise fires have not resulted in the catastrophic collapse as WTC7.

Name them.


Sorry I can't post some of my tasty comparison photos, but I'm a newbie

leave off the http:\\ and the www. and you will be fine.
 
If you pull your head out of your ass, and read what is said, that I and others have posted, you'll understand.

Seymore.

Fitterman Hall sat directly to the North of 7WTC, and from what I can see, the lean appears towards the north. I could be wrong, and I will look at the video in the thread you referenced.

If i'm wrong, I will gladly admit it. It's possible.
 
Buckling isn't akin to a knife cutting rope at all. Only after the rope is severed will the load fall, similar to a steel beam being severed, for instance. That's a much better analogy.

Analogy's aren't realities.
 
The western 2/3rds of WTC 7 fell to the south, the eastern 1/3(approx of course) fell to the NE. this put the bulk of the debris on Vessey Street and on WTC 6 while a portion of it fell towards the Fitterman.

this corressponds with the location of the 'kink', coincidence? I think not...

ETA: in fact both sections slightly twisted as they came down which is what IIRC caused the divergence in the direction that the debris lay
 
Last edited:
And the reality of this admission by NIST is – it is a physical impossibility for 8 massive football field sized floors of a steel framed structure to drop 105 feet at pure free fall – that is, without some well placed and synchronized cutter charges.

Since there are no explosions recorded capable of accounting for the kind of explosives you're referring to, doesn't that suggest there is another explanation other than "well placed and synchronized cutter charges"? We have several videos of the WTC7 collapse that would have picked up such explosives and we get nothing.


And yet, not a single one of them has published a paper proving NIST wrong with math, or physics, or anything.
Yes, I am asking for a paper that is published in something other than bentham, or JONES.

The papers published by the government drones are mostly fluff, with contradictory nonsense pumped up with helium to appear scientific, and appear to prove something, which they do not. The bottom line of all of these wonderful papers is, "a Global Collapse ensued" - great stuff!

There's been hundreds of papers about the collapse and related to the collapses, are all those authors in on the conspiracy? Does no one else care? Are all the journal heads and editors also in on it?

Doesn't that idea make you feel just a bit silly?

Is it your belief therefore that Bentham, who coincidently has a terrible reputation, the only "honest" scientific publication and that's why the paper published in one of their journals is the closest to a legitimate publication truthers have ever got?



They do not prove how diesel and office contents fire can produce molten steel, which was reported by numerous first responders and reporters on the scene,

1. Molten metal or molten steel? Molten metal was also reported all over WTC6, so was WTC6 a demolition?
2. How much of this material was studied?
3. How much was observed by metallurgists?
4. Given thermite's properties, even if it was used, how would the steel have been keep molten?
5. Why did no measurements account for steel melting temperatures?

John Gross and his disingenuous statements that “I never heard of anyone mentioning molten steel”. What a bald faced liar – there are numerous written and recorded report of exactly that – molten steel in the basements of all 3 towers.

He is right, there are no reports of molten steel apart from a few off the record accounts from firefighters, who are not metallurgists. Molten metal does not equal molten steel. Molten steel makes no sense to your argument, it makes it completely ridiculous.


And they do not prove how the admitted free fall of WTC7 could have happened, because they would have to re-write Newton's Laws first, and then make up some nonsensical new theory, like their quietly retired "Thermal Expansion" theory... or their "Pancake Theory"... remember those knee-slappers?.

Pancake theory was perfectly justified at the time, though I suspect you don't even know what it was. I don't know what you mean by "quietly retired" in reference to thermal expansion.




Are you serious? Do you know what symmetrical means?
All 3 “collapses” were symmetrical. It almost makes some sense with WTC1 and WTC2, as the buildings were in themselves, symmetrical, or square, lending themselves to a symmetrical failure.
.


Define symmetrical please because WTC1 and 2 caused a lot of damage that was outside their "footprint". Unless you do this specifically, you're just using meaningless words.



What types of chemicals were used is open to discussion, there may have been a new unknown chemical used along with some conventional stuff – if it’s the government, they have access to military inventions that we find out about 10 years after they have already used them. However, protected samples of WTC dust have been analyzed to contain unreacted Nano Thermite, a compound of extreme velocity and heat, and available only from government labs.


They didn't find nano thermite, they found what they had was not likely to be thermite then proceeded to claim it had to be super thermite despite not doing competent tests to actually definitively say whether it was thermite or not.

Your first comment is just incredulity, that there could be mysterious chemicals/compounds that exist that can cause the effect you want. Is that how your argument goes? When its shown thermite and conventional explosives can't do what you want you just say that there does exist some other mystery substance somewhere with no evidence at all?

The 47 story WTC7 was reduced to a 3 story heap in 7 short seconds, 20% of which were actual free fall


No the collapse was much longer than that, why do you ignore half of it? How do you expect to be taken seriously if you can't be first and foremost honest about the facts?
 
Last edited:
The western 2/3rds of WTC 7 fell to the south, the eastern 1/3(approx of course) fell to the NE. this put the bulk of the debris on Vessey Street and on WTC 6 while a portion of it fell towards the Fitterman.

this corressponds with the location of the 'kink', coincidence? I think not...

ETA: in fact both sections slightly twisted as they came down which is what IIRC caused the divergence in the direction that the debris lay

I stand corrected.

It was my understanding that most fell towards the North, but aparently not. Thanks.
 
Your first comment is just incredulity, that there could be mysterious chemicals/compounds that exist that can cause the effect you want. Is that how your argument goes? When its shown thermite and conventional explosives can't do what you want you just say that there does exist some other mystery substance?

Its invoking magic. Happens quite often with 9/11 conspiracists it seems.
 
The ENTIRE building did not fall at FFA. This is a lie.
Only a PORTION of the North Face did.
About 1/3rd the way down the page.

I never said it fell 100% at free fall, I quoted NIST’s report that 105 feet, or 8 stories of the total 47 stories collapsed at pure free fall – that’s 20% of the building’s height that fell at the speed of an object dropped over the side of a building and falling through nothing but air!

And the reality of this admission by NIST is – it is a physical impossibility for 8 massive football field sized floors of a steel framed structure to drop 105 feet at pure free fall – that is, without some well placed and synchronized cutter charges.


And yet, not a single one of them has published a paper proving NIST wrong with math, or physics, or anything.
Yes, I am asking for a paper that is published in something other than bentham, or JONES.

The papers published by the government drones are mostly fluff, with contradictory nonsense pumped up with helium to appear scientific, and appear to prove something, which they do not. The bottom line of all of these wonderful papers is, "a Global Collapse ensued" - great stuff!

They do not prove how diesel and office contents fire can produce molten steel, which was reported by numerous first responders and reporters on the scene, as steel needs 1000 degrees greater temperature than the temperatures that NIST has admitted were present – NIST accounts for this temperature discrepancy by denying the numerous reports of molten steel, to wit: – John Gross and his disingenuous statements that “I never heard of anyone mentioning molten steel”. What a bald faced liar – there are numerous written and recorded report of exactly that – molten steel in the basements of all 3 towers.

And they do not prove how the admitted free fall of WTC7 could have happened, because they would have to re-write Newton's Laws first, and then make up some nonsensical new theory, like their quietly retired "Thermal Expansion" theory... or their "Pancake Theory"... remember those knee-slappers?.


What building collapse was symmetrical?

Are you serious? Do you know what symmetrical means?
All 3 “collapses” were symmetrical. It almost makes some sense with WTC1 and WTC2, as the buildings were in themselves, symmetrical, or square, lending themselves to a symmetrical failure.

But WTC7 was asymmetrical, a trapezoid of 330 feet on the long side, and 140 feet on the 2 short sides. For this asymmetrical structure to collapse symmetrically calls for a failure of all steel columns, simultaneously, or it would have crumbled on edge, and then fallen horizontally – which by the way NIST actually called the collapse a horizontal collapse, when all videos show a vertical collapse, straight down, not side to side.


Which yeilded more energy than thermite of any flavor does.

What types of chemicals were used is open to discussion, there may have been a new unknown chemical used along with some conventional stuff – if it’s the government, they have access to military inventions that we find out about 10 years after they have already used them. However, protected samples of WTC dust have been analyzed to contain unreacted Nano Thermite, a compound of extreme velocity and heat, and available only from government labs.

Didn't fall straight at all. Hit two other buildings.

It fell as straight down as the very best of controlled demolitions that have ever been performed. It did not hit “two of the buildings”, the Verizon Building on its West side, and the US Post Office building on its East side incurred only very minor cosmetic damage, mostly from the debris from WTC1, and are still in use today after minor repairs. The 47 story WTC7 was reduced to a 3 story heap in 7 short seconds, 20% of which were actual free fall

No aircraft, correct. However, the fires that burned more than 3.5 times the rating of the SFRM. It also showed signs of structural instability earlier in the day.

The fires moved from fuel source to fuel source, burning themselves out as they moved to other areas, Once the fire moves on, the steel returns to normal temperatures rapidly, as steel is an excellent conductor of heat. No fire burned in one spot long enough to elevate the steel to anywhere near failure mode.

Well, get on it!!

It’s on, baby

The buildings fell straight do just as gravity dictated.
 
GrimFandango you are expressing things as fact when they are not, then using them to support a position.

What's up with that?
 
The fires moved from fuel source to fuel source, burning themselves out as they moved to other areas, Once the fire moves on, the steel returns to normal temperatures rapidly, as steel is an excellent conductor of heat. No fire burned in one spot long enough to elevate the steel to anywhere near failure mode.

What qualifies you to assume you are correct in this statement? Did you just read it somewhere and take it at face value?

The reason I ask is that I (among other here) am a firefighter and have some training in fire science. And what you just stated is 100% incorrect.

#1. Steel does not return to "normal" temp quickly.

#2. Just because one corner of a room fire exhausts it's fuel, it doesn't mean the temperature will drop significantly within a confined area. Example: Your oven will have 2 to 4 heating elements. If only one of your oven elements is working to heat the inside, it still heats it to a set temperature. The same principles are present in a fire.

I suggest you take the time to actually confirm your assumptions before presenting them as fact.
 
If you look at the videos and photos, it's obvious that the collapse was not free fall, so this is a strawman. There can clearly be seen falling debris (in free fall) that has fallen much farther than the collapse point of the building.

Additionally the start of collapse is masked on some views. The central tower can just be seen moving, some time before the outer skin starts moving. If you time based on movement of the outer skin, then the collapse appears to be faster than it really was.

ETA: this photo (below left), conveniently annotated by "truthers" themselves, shows a large chunk of outer skin (circled in red) which if you follow the dust trail has fallen at least twice as far as the top of the collapse (somewhere above the yellow bar), the intact portion probably being higher but obscured by dust/smoke.

In no sense does "virtually free fall" match with the reality "less than half as fast as free fall".

wtc1corecollapsevc5.jpg
 
Last edited:

Back
Top Bottom