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The Vietnam War Memorial....

Re: Re: Re: Re: The Vietnam War Memorial....

no one in particular said:
Yes, but there is a consideration to make…do we or do we not add the names of all the Vietnamese that Pol Pot slaughtered after the US pullout? That is a big freakin’ wall.

Pol Pot was in Cambodia, and he was killing Cambodians. It was Vietnam that eventually went in and kicked him out.

Pol Pot came to power after the country was 'destabilised' due to the side effects of the Vietnam war. There is a very good probability that without the war, there would have been no Pol Pot.
 
I believe it stands as a symbol of the government's real reasons behind the good reasons. At least they gave those kids something to be remembered, and did not smear it with political rehotric. I would like to see it one day, but not to wave a flag, but to remember.

Maybe if every mother/father and soldier in the world would visit something like the memorial of a useless war that was not won-- maybe people would not be so ready to kill each other over a stupid reason.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Vietnam War Memorial....

a_unique_person said:


Pol Pot was in Cambodia, and he was killing Cambodians. It was Vietnam that eventually went in and kicked him out.

Pol Pot came to power after the country was 'destabilised' due to the side effects of the Vietnam war. There is a very good probability that without the war, there would have been no Pol Pot.

Yes and the U.S. was so pissed that Vietnam did that the U.S. made exiled Pol Pot, ambassdor to the UN for that country right after in the early 1980's.

When Vietnam did that the government asked for a cup of rice a family to prevent starving in Cambodia because the U.S. did not want to help Vietnam. --Very Sad.
 
Malachi151 said:
This memorial is a paradox. By making the memorial the country has made what it symbolizes patriotic, when in fact it really should not be patriotic.
I don't think a black wall with the names of fallen soldiers is per se patriotic.

So now people associate the Vietnam War with pride for country and support for the government, when in fact that's really the opposite of what it symbolizes.
The wall allows each to choose what it symbolizes for them.

Now, is Vietnam really a symbol of patriotism and love of country and a symbol of a good country that honors its citizens? To me it is a symbol of insane leaders that killed 2 million Vietnamese and 50,000+ Americans due to stupidity while lying to the American people every step of the way.
Well you are certainly entitled to your opinion and view. This is not my view. Vietnam represents a failed attempt to protect the freedoms of a people. One only need look at the past Soviet Union, China or North Korea and the scores of millions tortured and murdered to conclude that Communism was a real threat to innocent people.

There were lies and lots of insanity. I will grant you that. But young Americans gave their lives in the hopes of giving others hope and an opportunity.

The Vietnam War will never make me feel pride for American leaders, the American flag, or the American military, it makes me feel the opposite.
Again, that is your prerogative. The wall gives me conflicting feelings. A profound sense of sadness but a sense of pride in those young men who answered the call.

Consider if you will a firefighter who against the odds attempts to save someone from a burning building and fails. Was his action fruitless? Do we skip the posthumous medal for bravery?

The wall is the medal honoring those who died attempting to save others. There is much reason for me to feel patriotic about those who would put themselves in harms way because their country said "we need you".

The Wall is a memorial to people that died for no good reason because people were too many people were too patriotic to prevent it from happening.
Overly simplistic and wrong headed. The seeds of Vietnam were sown under Eisenhower and were nurtured slowly by JFK and ever increasingly by Johnson. By the time the public realized our true commitment to the war it was too late. It was much like a lobster placed in a pot of warm water.

Its a memorial that pays honor to those to died...
Yes

...and those that fought to end the war
NO! In fact this was one of the main concerns of veterans. They expressly did not want the memorial to in any way represent those who stood against the war. The wall is not meant to be for or against the war. It is meant to honor those who died. That is all. By saying the wall is against the war then you say the wall is against many who died and believed in the war. Such a statement would have been a travesty.

NO, the wall is NOT anti-Vietnam war. Neither is it pro-war Vietnam or otherwise. It was never meant to be. If you choose to see it that way then it is your prerogative.

it pays no honor to patriotism,...
I disagree but respect your opinion.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Vietnam War Memorial....

Pol Pot was in Cambodia, and he was killing Cambodians.

Oh, so that's OK, then.

It was Vietnam that eventually went in and kicked him out.

...after the marxist government in Vietnam helped put him in power in the first place.

Pol Pot came to power after the country was 'destabilised' due to the side effects of the Vietnam war. There is a very good probability that without the war, there would have been no Pol Pot.

TRANSLATION: when the US fights marxist thugs in Vietnam and kills people in the war, the dead are the fault of "US agression".

But when the US decides NOT to fight marxist thugs in Vietnam and lets them establish their usual gulag-and-firing-squad worker's paradise, those gulags, too, are "really" the fault of the US--not, God forbid, the fault of the Marxist thugs that established them.

So no matter who does the killing--the US army or the Vietnamese--it's all the US's fault.

Why? because AUP believes (without any evidence whatsoever) that these gulags would not have happened without the US "destabilizing" the region.

According to this logic, I suppose that Stalin's and Mao's death camps are also, mysteriously, "really" the US's fault for "destabilizing" China and the USSR in some unknown fashion. What else could have POSSIBLY caused it?

Of course, the truth is that marxists and dictatorial genocide go together: that's what marxists DO, as North Korea, Cuba, the USSR, China, Cambodia, Zimbabwe, etc., etc., etc. show.

They only did it in Vietnam after the US pulled out, not because the US going in and/or pulling out "destabilized" the region, but for the very simple reason that the couldn't set up those gulags as long as the US WAS fighting them.

Marxist death camps in Cambodia and Vietnam had nothing to do with the US "destabilizing" anything. It has a lot to do with the evil of marxism, however.
 
I always found the Vietnam Memorial to be very unconventional as far as war memorials. It is hardly a jingoistic monument. Just a stark listing of names of the fallen.
 
RandFan,Jr.

You still have not read my paper yet have you ;)

To quote myself:

The American involvement in Vietnam

Thousands of books have been written on the issue of the American involvement in the Vietnam War. It’s an issue that still evokes emotion and difference of opinion today.

America’s official military involvement in the Vietnam War lasted from 1965 to 1975, 10 long years. Prior to American involvement in the region Vietnam was a French colonial territory.

The Vietnamese people were generally oppressed under French rule both prior to WWII and after. In 1930 Ho Chi Minh drew up a charter for the Indochinese Communist Party. The objectives of the party were the overthrow of the French; establishment of Vietnamese independence; establishment of a workers', peasants', and soldiers' government; organization of a workers' militia; cancellation of public debts; confiscation of means of production and their transfer to the government; distribution of French-owned lands to the peasants; suppression of taxes; establishment of an eight-hour work day; development of crafts and agriculture; institution of freedom of organization; and establishment of education for all citizens.

After World War II the issue of Indochina, the region which contained Vietnam, was a matter of question. FDR sided with Chiang Kai-shek and Stalin in stating that the region of Indochina should be turned over to a trusteeship and set on the road to independence rather than be returned to its position as a colonial territory of the French. Churchill rejected this idea because it was an issue that could set president on the matter of colonialism, which the British certainly hoped to maintain.

Eventually, even under FDR, American support was given to the French and Indochina was returned to a state of French colonial rule much to the chagrin of the Vietnamese people.

Throughout the 1940s Ho Chi Minh and other Vietnamese leaders made repeated appeals to FDR and other American officials to help them gain independence from French colonial rule. These appeals were generally ignored.

On February 16th, 1945 Ho Chi Minh wrote a letter to President Truman asking for American assistance is gaining Vietnamese freedom. The letter closed with the remarks: "We ask what has been graciously granted to the Philippines. Like the Philippines our goal is full independence and full cooperation with the UNITED STATES. We will do our best to make this independence and cooperation profitable to the whole world.

I am dear Mr. PRESIDENT,

Respectfully Yours,

Ho Chi Minh"

The letter was not declassified until 1972.

In 1945 Ho Chi Minh declared Vietnamese independence, and conflict between the French and the Vietnamese people officially began.

The Declaration of Independence of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam starts:

“"All men are created equal. They are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights; among these are Liberty, Life and the pursuit of Happiness."

This immortal statement appeared in the Declaration of Independence of the United States of America in 1776. In a broader sense, it means: all the peoples on the earth are equal from birth, all the peoples have a right to live and to be happy and free.

The Declaration of the Rights of Man and the Citizen, made at the time of the French Revolution, in 1791, also states: "All men are born free and with equal rights, and must always remain free and have equal rights."

Those are undeniable truths.

Nevertheless, for more than eighty years, the French imperialists, abusing the standard of liberty, Equality and Fraternity, have violated our Fatherland and oppressed our fellow-citizens. They have acted contrary to the ideals of humanity and justice.

Politically: they have deprived our people of every democratic liberty…“

The full text of the declaration can be found here:

http://www.cpv.org.vn/vietnam_en/declaration.html

The US generally took an approach of non-involvement in the issue of Vietnamese and French conflict, and in doing so supported French colonialism. America became less and less inclined to support Ho Chi Min due to his communist affiliation yet at the same time American analysts could not draw any link between Ho Chi Minh and Moscow, writing that Ho Chi Minh did not seem to be following any directive from Moscow and that the policies of Ho Chi Minh did not correlate with Russian policy.

It was clear that the Vietnamese people wanted freedom from foreign intervention.

What followed between the region of South East Asia and Western powers was an unnecessary escalation of conflict. Western powers, including the United States, feared communism and they also felt that nonwestern people were not adequate to govern themselves and certainly not to be trusted with important resources and geographic regions. It was felt that it was important to keep economically and militarily strategic locations under Western authority.

In 1950 the French gave up their effort to maintain direct control over Vietnam and transferred power to Bao Dai. The US recognized Bao Dai, but the Vietnamese people did not; he was generally a puppet of the French.

In 1954 President Eisenhower wrote:

“I have never talked or corresponded with a person knowledgeable in Indochinese affairs who did not agree that had elections been held at the time of the fighting, possibly 80 percent of the population would have voted for Communist Ho Chi Minh as their leader rather then Chief of State Bao Dai.”

In 1953 President Eisenhower proclaimed at the Governor’s conference in Seattle:

“Now let us assume that we lose Indochina. If Indochina goes, several things happen right away. The Malayan peninsula would be scarcely defensible- and tin and tungsten we so greatly value from that area would cease coming… All of that weakening position around there is very ominous for the United States, because finally if we lost all that, how would the free world [sic] hold the rich empire of Indonesia? So you see, somewhere along the line, this must be blocked. That is what the French are doing…

So, when the United States votes $400 million to help that war, we are not voting for a giveaway program. We are voting for the cheapest way that we can to prevent the occurrence of something that would be of the most terrible significance for the United States of America- our security, our power and ability to get certain things from the riches of South East Asia.”

This is one of my favorite quotes because it so eloquently illustrates the reality of the geopolitical situation. “…how would the 'free world' 'hold' the rich empire of Indonesia?” Indeed. This gets to the crux of not only the Vietnamese situation but the global situation, and obviously the Iraqi situation. The free world is free because it does “hold” control over the “other” parts of the world. The world that is not “free” is not free precisely because it is “held” by the “free world”, and the freedom that is possible in the “free world” is only possible because of these holdings.

The Vietnamese people never accepted the rule of Bao Dai. Ho Chi Minh and his forces continued to fight for true independence and the establishment of a communist government that would be free from foreign intervention.

In 1954 Vietnam was divided into North and South Vietnam and Bao Dai and his French advisors attempted to take control of South Vietnam. At this point America had enough of dealing with the French, who had so far been losing their hold on the region, so the US backed Ngo Dinh Diem who American leaders felt would be agreeable to American authority in Vietnam. Ngo Dinh Diem, who lived in the United States during the French-Indochina war, was the first “democratically” elected president of South Vietnam. The election was coerced however. The only choices were between Bao Dai and Ngo Dinh Diem, both leaders that were favored by Western powers. Voters complained that they were told who to vote for, to vote for Diem, some of those that did not were beaten by CIA supported Vietnamese forces.

The result of the election was 98.2% for Diem. Diem’s American advisors told him to change the vote count and release a number no larger then 70% or else the vote would not be believable. As one of his first acts of non-cooperation he refused and claimed a 98.2% victory. The world immediately knew that the election had been rigged and his authority was undermined.

It’s easy to see why the first experiences that the Vietnamese had with “Western democracy” left a bad taste in their mouth and resulted in a high level of distrust in American and Western involvement and systems.

In 1956 Diem cancelled a national election between the North and South with American assistance knowing that Ho Chi Minh would easily win open elections.

Shortly after canceling the elections he had over a hundred thousand citizens put into prison camps, mostly communists, but generally anyone who opposed his rule, including journalists and intellectuals, and even children.

During Diem’s term American forces protected the leader against attempts to overthrow him. Under Kennedy the CIA and US military protected Diem as well as took action against oppositional forces. Money was given to Diem as “foreign aid” to help Diem establish a militant system of government to control opposition to his rule as well as to enforce the laws that he was passing, laws that for bayed freedom of religion and kept many Vietnamese in poverty. This was done in the hopes that Diem would be able to suppress Communist groups in Vietnam and unite South and North Vietnam. All that these actions really did was cause the Communist opposition to grow and caused Communist leaders to believe that violence would be the only way to free the country from tyranny. This led to growing militarism of the Communist forces in Vietnam.

In 1961 Vice President Lyndon Johnson wrote:

"President Diem is the Churchill of the decade… He will fight Communism in the streets and alleys, and when his hands are torn he will fight it with his feet… President Ngo Dinh Diem is in the vanguard of those leaders who stand for freedom"

Approximately 70% of Vietnam was Buddhist, however the under the rule of the French and Diem there was significant favoritism shown to Christian followers, particularly Catholics. Vietnamese were encouraged to convert in order to get jobs or avoid harassment from government officials. A well known Vietnamese proverb of the time was "Turn Catholic and have rice to eat." Oppressive laws were passed against non-Christian religious practices. Monks were sent into exile and those that attempted to practice their Buddhism in spite of laws against it were harassed and even killed. In 1963 American backed Vietnamese forces opened fire on South Vietnamese demonstrators that were demonstrating for religious freedom. Nine people were killed.

On June 11th, 1963 Thich Quang Due, a sixty-six year old monk, set himself on fire in Saigon in protest to the oppression of the Diem administration, as seen below. Diem's response to this action was: “Let them burn, and we shall clap our hands."



Eventually the Kennedy administration was convinced that Diem was not going to be successful in advancing American goals in Vietnam so Kennedy authorized the CIA to support a military coup of the Diem administration. In 1963 the CIA provided a group of South Vietnamese generals with $40,000 to overthrow Diem. Diem was then assassinated.

America had once again created and destroyed a monster.

In 1965 America officially entered the Vietnam War to fight against the will of the Vietnamese people and to support minority Vietnamese interests which were tied to American interests.

Vietnam was a display of American fallibility, lack of judgment, lack of understanding of root issues, lack of support for people to determine their own destiny and govern themselves, as well as a display of just how brutal America was willing to be to attempt to get it’s way. It was also an example of the extent to which the government would lie to its citizens and the international community in order to get the support for acts of war.

During the American involvement in the Vietnam War:

3,403,100 Americans served in the South East Asia region during the war
Total casualties (combined enemy and allied): 5,773,190
Total killed (combined enemy and allied): 2,122,244
Americans killed: 58,169
Civilians killed or wounded: 1,522,000
Tons of bombs dropped: 6,727,084 (compare to 2,700,000 tons dropped in WWII by Allied forces on Germany)
Cost of the war: $352,000,000,000 (note that is not in current dollars)
American forces sprayed 3,500,000 acres with chemical weapons, the effects of which will last over 100 years
One of the best articles written on the early policy making of the war was How Could This Happen? – An Autopsy, written in 1968 by James Thompson, who worked for the State Department during the early phases of the Vietnam War. I highly recommend this article as it’s lessons are just as relevant today as they were in 1968, in fact, in many ways, more so. One of the pertinent closing remarks he makes is:

“There is a final result of Vietnam policy I would cite that holds potential danger for the future of American foreign policy: the rise of a new breed of American ideologues who see Vietnam as the ultimate test of their doctrine. I have in mind those men in Washington who have given a new life to the missionary impulse in American foreign relations: who believe that this nation, in this era, has received a threefold endowment that can transform the world. As they see it, that endowment is composed of, first, our unsurpassed military might; second, our clear technological supremacy; and third, our allegedly invincible benevolence (our "altruism," our affluence, our lack of territorial aspirations). Together, it is argued, this threefold endowment provides us with the opportunity and the obligation to ease the nations of the earth toward modernization and stability: toward a fullfledged Pax Americana Technocratica. In reaching toward this goal, Vietnam is viewed as the last and crucial test. Once we have succeeded there, the road ahead is clear. In a sense, these men are our counterpart to the visionaries of Communism's radical left: they are technocracy's own Maoists. They do not govern Washington today. But their doctrine rides high.”

This was written in 1968, and today, in 2003, these very men that Thompson wrote about are in the seat of power in America. The war in Iraq is meant to be the success to replace the failure of Vietnam and is meant to be the springboard for the new “Pax Americana”, as has been stated by the Project for a New American Century and endorsed by our nation’s current leaders. I will retouch on this subject later in the "Putting it all Together" section and prove that one of the major components of the Pax Americana agenda, “altruism”, is a lie. America is not, and has never been, altruistic; furthermore American policy makers have specifically stated that America cannot afford altruism. The image of altruism is one of the most significant parts of the propagandistic lie.

How Could This Happen? – An Autopsy:

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/68apr/vietnam.htm

Upon returning from Vietnam Lieutenant John Kerry, now a Senator, testified on the issue of Vietnam before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 1971. Here are a few of his statements:

"I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command....

They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country."

"In our opinion, and from our experience, there is nothing in South Vietnam, nothing which could happen that realistically threatens the United States of America. And to attempt to justify the loss of one American life in Vietnam, Cambodia, or Laos by linking such loss to the preservation of freedom, which those misfits supposedly abuse, is to us the height of criminal hypocrisy, and it is that kind of hypocrisy which we feel has torn this country apart."

"We found that not only was it a civil war, an effort by a people who had for years been seeking their liberation from any colonial influence whatsoever, but also we found that the Vietnamese whom we had enthusiastically molded after our own image were hard put to take up the fight against the threat we were supposedly saving them from.

We found most people didn't even know the difference between communism and democracy. They only wanted to work in rice paddies without helicopters strafing them and bombs with napalm burning their villages and tearing their country apart. They wanted everything to do with the war, particularly with this foreign presence of the United States of America, to leave them alone on peace, and they practiced the art of survival by siding with whichever military force was present at a particular time, be it Vietcong, North Vietnamese, or American.

We found also that all too often American men were dying in those rice paddies for want of support from their allies. We saw first hand how money from American taxes was used for a corrupt dictatorial regime. We saw that many people in this country had a one-sided idea of who was kept free by our flag, as blacks provided the highest percentage of casualties. We saw Vietnam ravaged equally by American bombs as well as by search and destroy missions, as well as by Vietcong terrorism, and yet we listened while this country tried to blame all of the havoc on the Viet Cong."

"Someone has to die so that President Nixon won't be, and these are his words, 'the first President to lose a war.'"

More of John Kerry's statements on the war in Vietnam:

http://www.richmond.edu/~ebolt/history398/JohnKerryTestimony.html

A good overview of Vietnamese history and the war:

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/VietnamWar.htm

Studying the Vietnam War On-line:

http://www.refstar.com/vietnam/online_study.html

Another good resource on the Vietnam War:

http://25thaviation.org/id275.htm#two_letters
 
Neither the Vietnam War Memorial Wall nor Three Servicemen Statue are patriotic paradoxes. Both memorialize and honor the American men and women who fought, and too often died, in that conflict.

The Merriam-Webster definition of patriotic is "one who loves his country", and I can think of no generation who loved their country more, irregardless of whether they fought in, or protested against, the Vietnam War.
 

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