The US-Mexico Border Fence

[Puggy]

Me being Mexican, and plenty here US citizens, I'd love to hear any comments on this bill that just got signed. I have to admit that I'm not a very political person, but I'm just curious what my fellow skeptics think about this issue.

My take on this is that Mexico/South America has a lot of poor people, but that it's not the US' fault, or at least not all. My perception is that the USA is very generous with its illegal immigrants. While listening to John and Ken (on conservative talk radio station kfi 640, that's about the only mildly entertaining english-speaking station I get at my city) it would seem that illegals are draining resources from the US, is this true? Is the cost of them being over there a bigger burden than not having them there?

Over here, we have plenty of jobs (badly payed for uneducated folks, and better payed, but much less than in the US, for educated people, but jobs nonetheless), but it seems that the (true) rumors about making more money over there (US) makes the decision easier for the uneducated. They earn as much or more than me!.

I have a masters in computer networks with a bachelors in computer science, and I'm planning on a doctorates. I have a somewhat well payed job, but could earn double or triple if I moved to the US. I would love to move over there, but my need to educate people is what's keeping me here. Everything is more expensive here, considering that the wages are about hald to a third lower than in the US... So I guess this is a common feeling, You know, the "greener grass" syndrome.

Does this problem have a more sane and "simple" solution, or does the solution involve building a fence and lots of patroling as a necessary component? BTW, I do support the US' freedom to put whatever fence they want, also they can make laws about anything, even making illegal immigrants criminals, but I'm wondering if it's the only way...

Thanks.

 

[pipelineaudio]

With more people like you in Mexico, that seem to look to the future instead of wanting to steal, we wont need a fence. I applaud you

I'd like to clarify your post that illegal immigrants (aka trespassers, criminal invaders, violaters of sovereingty) are by definition criminals, and in order to stay here and live need to keep commiting crimes, such as identity theft, working illegally, falsifying documents, driving unlicensed, uninsured, etc...

I dont know if it costs america as a whole, more to pay for the criminals than we save from them, but for 100% sure, those of us in the border states are devastated for having to pay for them.

I am so glad to see someone like you, and indeed meeting more and more of like mind. In Arizona we are hearing more and more about mexican community leaders who are saying "lets make Mexico a place people want to come to, rather than escape from"

Not saying its going to be an easy ride, but I'd WAY rather pay to help you guys fix up your country, than to pay for the medical care and food and rent for the guy who is stealing my car, my social security and my happiness

Many Americans have no idea how incredibly beautiful Mexico is, because of the incredible filth and treachery coming thru our borders

 

[Puggy]

With more people like you in Mexico, that seem to look to the future instead of wanting to steal, we wont need a fence. I applaud you

I'd like to clarify your post that illegal immigrants (aka trespassers, criminal invaders, violaters of sovereingty) are by definition criminals, and in order to stay here and live need to keep commiting crimes, such as identity theft, working illegally, falsifying documents, driving unlicensed, uninsured, etc...

Yes, You and I agree on this subject. Ironically, the Mexican government does a terrible job with our own illegal immigrants that come from South America. The police usually robs, beat, and extorts them, and the government doesn't help them, but when a fellow Mexican is beaten by a US immigration officer, after the illegals threaten the officers, all hell breaks loose.

I am so glad to see someone like you, and indeed meeting more and more of like mind. In Arizona we are hearing more and more about mexican community leaders who are saying "lets make Mexico a place people want to come to, rather than escape from"

I hardly ever find fellow Mexicans that feel that way. It seems that they're always pushing for the pro-immigration stuff instead of trying to fix the real problems, and almost all mexicans hate the US because You guys "robbed" lots of our property, sigh. We really are that stupid.

Not saying its going to be an easy ride, but I'd WAY rather pay to help you guys fix up your country, than to pay for the medical care and food and rent for the guy who is stealing my car, my social security and my happiness

We have many BIG problems, but two very important ones are lots of corruption and below average education system. Both are going to take a while to fix, but a can see it happening.

Many Americans have no idea how incredibly beautiful Mexico is, because of the incredible filth and treachery coming thru our borders

I mostly agree, but please be careful with the generalizations...

Cheers!

 

[steverino]

The president of Mexico said our building a fence is like building a Berlin Wall. Wouldn't it be the other way around...We want to keep people from sneaking in, not out. East Germany had the crappy country, not us.

 

[Puggy]

Yeah, my president is just playing the crowd. Sadly, that's what most of my country(wo)men think. . Almost all arguments are emotional, no logic there.

 

[fishbob]

I'd like to clarify your post that illegal immigrants (aka trespassers, criminal invaders, violaters of sovereingty) are by definition criminals, and in order to stay here and live need to keep commiting crimes, such as identity theft, working illegally, falsifying documents, driving unlicensed, uninsured, etc...

I would like to expand on your post. The American companies and employers that hire illegals are also criminals. Worse criminals in my opinion, because they knowingly encourage illegals to come over, put US citizens out of work, depress US wages, do not pay their share of the FICA taxes, insurance costs, and other normal business expenses. Cheating scumwads far worse than non-citizens willing to illegally work for higher pay.

 

[pipelineaudio]

Thanks fishbob!

Every once in a while, some maverick places 1800's "wanted" style posters of employers of illegals, but always get in trouble. The employer will claim they didnt know, or some crazy enablers will come to his aid.

The employers who knowingly do this need to be deported themselves, antarctica maybe.

Its a downward cycle, as soon as one guy does it, they ALL gotta do it, if your competitor can thru illegal labor put out a house for 40,000 when you need 100,000, what do you do?

Our schools are history, yet the guys who hire illegals in large numbers are also famous for media mugshots donating this or that to a school, while that school's kids' parents are begging for scraps since their jobs are gone.

The minutemen have been trying here to identify and punish the employers. Its slow going.

Puggy, Im an amatuer herpetologist, how's the lizard watching in your neck of the woods? Ours are going to bed for the winter here

 

[Tricky]

I'm against punishing people who are trying to find a better life, but even if I wasn't, the fence is a bad idea. Expensive and ineffective, it won't do much of anything to slow down illegal immigration.

The easy solution (as Pipline alluded to) is to punish the people who employ illegals. And it can't be that difficult. With the enormous power of the internet and massive databases, it should be relatively easy to check on the credentials of any potential employee.

But we don't, and the reason we don't is because the powers in Washington only use illegal immigration as a scapegoat. They don't dare attack the big companies who would see their profits plummet if they were punished for hiring them. It is hypocricy at its worst. Illegals don't make campaign contributions and they are (relatively) easy to punish without much backlash, so that is who the conservatives lash out at. Not agrobuisness. Not the construction industry. Not the food service industry. Neither do they seem to acknowledge that the cost of living would take a sharp upturn without "illegal" labor.

The fence is an expensive election investment. It is no kind of solution.

 

[Bill Thompson]

I think that the fense is a bad idea. The evil neo cons are being selfish and racist.

But, at the same time, the comment of it being like the Berlin wall seems to suggest we are already two halves of one country. This might be a good omen.

 

[Dave1001]

I think that the fense is a bad idea. The evil neo cons are being selfish and racist.

But, at the same time, the comment of it being like the Berlin wall seems to suggest we are already two halves of one country. This might be a good omen.

Wow, Bill Thompson, I completely agree. In my opinion, pretty much any one with the leisure time and inclination to post on this forum isn't going to be harmed by undocumented Mexican migration -you're going to benefit. I say no fence, let's let the labor market determine if Mexicans want to come to or leave America. It's not like they're going to start replacing scientists, doctors, lawyers, librarians, journalists, engineers, and whoever else makes up the JREF forum membership.

 

[BPSCG]

I'm against punishing people who are trying to find a better life, but even if I wasn't, the fence is a bad idea. Expensive and ineffective, it won't do much of anything to slow down illegal immigration.

Well, we won't know that for sure until we build it, will we? I hate to drag the @#$ Berlin Wall into this, as it was built to kep people imprisoned, which the U.S. wall manifestly is not, but the Berlin Wall did effectively choke off the flow of people in and out of East Berlin. And Israel's West Bank wall has been similarly effective. Neither was/is perfect, but if you reject every imperfect solution to every problem, you end up rejecting every solution to every problem.

The easy solution (as Pipline alluded to) is to punish the people who employ illegals.

That's the "easy" solution. It's only failing is that it won't work, as long as the economic incentives for hiring illegals outweigh the disincentives. Them nasty old Big Businesses will pass on the cost to the consumer. And small businesses? Well, how about a real life example? We had some work done on our house this week. Low bidder was a guy from Guatamala who I'm sure is legal, since he advertises on the web, is insured, bonded, has all the licenses, all that stuff. His bid was about half what the next higher contractor bid, so we hired him. He had two assistants working with him, neither of whom spoke more than a few words of English, and we have little doubt they were illegals.

Multiply this contractor by thousands, even tens of thousands, all over the country. Who's going to report them? Do you think Mrs. BPSCG and I called ICE to tell them we suspected our contractor had illegals? Is the government going to hire tens of thousands of new inspectors to harry small contractors doing one-day jobs (and raise taxes accordingly to pay the inspectors' salaries)?

And it can't be that difficult. With the enormous power of the internet and massive databases, it should be relatively easy to check on the credentials of any potential employee.

Except that ACLU would scream bloody murder the minute you tried to "invade people's privacy" by allowing employers to key in on someone's SSN. Don't misunderstand; I think it would be a good idea - would certainly make prosecution of companies hiring illegals a lot easier ("Don't give us that nonsense that you didn't know Diego was illegal...") - but the devil, as always, is in the details.

But we don't, and the reason we don't is because the powers in Washington only use illegal immigration as a scapegoat. They don't dare attack the big companies who would see their profits plummet if they were punished for hiring them.

Oh, please, stop with the "nasty Big Business Conspiracy Guys who secretly control the gummint are screwing the country" meme. The big companies would just figure out how much they expect it would cost them per year in fines, and work that into their cost structures. Then deduct those expenses from their net income reported to the IRS at the end of the year. It would cause a small uptick in the nationwide cost of living, and a small drop in their profits. It would not solve the illegal immigrants problem.

The problem is as Puggy stated: Corrupt Mexican government. Because it's not that Mexicans don't want to work - they're all over here because they want to work. In America, even if you have little education and don't speak the language, as long as you work hard, you can be better off than if you stay in Mexico. It stinks, but the long-term solution lies south of the border, not north of it.

 

[Q-Source]

The problem is as Puggy stated: Corrupt Mexican government. Because it's not that Mexicans don't want to work - they're all over here because they want to work. In America, even if you have little education and don't speak the language, as long as you work hard, you can be better off than if you stay in Mexico. It stinks, but the long-term solution lies south of the border, not north of it.

I agree to a certain extent, illegal immigration is not really caused by a corrupt Mexican government, although in some cases it might be true. It is the inefficiency of the government policies to stimulate economic growth. More resources are needed in the education system to prepare the labour force, more resources are needed to increase investment and generate employment.

From my point of view, what the US government should do is to stress in its discourse that illegal immigration is a result of the Mexican government's failure to create jobs and improve the living standards of its population. It sounds very simple but it would have enourmous repercussions at the political level. Place the responsability on the Mexican government.

 

[WildCat]

I would like to expand on your post. The American companies and employers that hire illegals are also criminals. Worse criminals in my opinion, because they knowingly encourage illegals to come over, put US citizens out of work, depress US wages, do not pay their share of the FICA taxes, insurance costs, and other normal business expenses. Cheating scumwads far worse than non-citizens willing to illegally work for higher pay.

If only it were so simple. I'm in the construction business, and there is a lot of pressure on prices, and this pressure comes from the customers. Give an estimate, and 95% of potential customers will pick the lowest estimate. For many, it comes down to hiring illegals or going out of business. Perhaps your "cheating scumwads" statement should also be directed at the customers of those who hire illegals...

 

[WildCat]

They don't dare attack the big companies who would see their profits plummet if they were punished for hiring them.

See my response above Tricky. In my business (construction) it's not about your profits plummeting, but about staying in business period. Not many people getting rich in this business any more, in fact I'm at the verge of getting out entirely. And what to do about the companies owned by illegals?

And despite you're desire to go after the companies, and not the illegals, it is impossible to go after one w/o also going after the other. Because if you go after the companies, you put the illegals out of work.

 

[Beerina]

I agree to a certain extent, illegal immigration is not really caused by a corrupt Mexican government, although in some cases it might be true.

More accurately, the lack of better jobs there that's making a move to the US sound appealing is due largely to a corrupt Mexican government. When businesses are tied up giving massive kickbacks to the police and officials (all on top of any official socialist concepts getting in the way of economic development) you end up not with a South Korea, but a North.

 

[Darth Rotor]

I would like to expand on your post. The American companies and employers that hire illegals are also criminals. Worse criminals in my opinion, because they knowingly encourage illegals to come over, put US citizens out of work, depress US wages, do not pay their share of the FICA taxes, insurance costs, and other normal business expenses. .

I want to have your children. Oh, wait, I can't. Anyway, well said.

DR

 

[Pescado]

First of all, before delving into the OP, I'd like to address some related issues that have been presented in this thread thus far. As a person who has met many Mexicans who are in this country illegally, let me say that some of the insensitive generalizations and name-calling in this thread about this population of people is more than a little bit repulsive to me. In my (quite extensive) experience, the vast majority of illegal Mexican immigrants are kind, upstanding, family-oriented, hard-working people that I can honestly relate to better than many upper-middle or upper class fellow Americans. As a matter of fact, my college educated girlfriend of six years is the child of immigrants who were at one point in time in this country illegally. The Mexicans who illegally enter this country to work are basically conservative country boys/girls, like I was raised, who American conservatives have a lot more in common with than they think, if they could see past immigration issues, and vice versa. I'd also like to add, just for the record, that if I could make $400,000/year instead of $40,000/year by illegally crossing into Canada and technically breaking a law, you better believe that I would go to to extremes to do it.

With that being said, let me also say that I don't deny that illegal immigrantion is an issue that needs to be addressed. I don't know anything about the actual research behind this border wall(if any exists), but if it will actually work, then I am all for it. Obviously we need to know who is coming into this country, and sharing a porous border with a developing country doesn't facilitate that. It is also my opinion, however, that once this border wall is built, legal immigration or guest-worker opportunities should be increased substantially for uneducated Mexicans. It is no secret that important industries rely on Mexican labor, namely agriculture, which is basically nothing but Mexican immigrants, at least around here.

The most important thing, though, that some other posters in this thread have already commented on, is that we need to do more to change Mexico for the better, so that Mexicans won't mind living there. It is no surprise that the Mexican government doesn't care about improving their own country to slow illegal immigration. Every time a poor, uneducated, unemployed person leaves the country, the country's per-capita wealth bumps up the tiniest bit. Not to mention that Mexican nationals sending US currency back to Mexico is the second largest source of revenue for Mexico(!!), after oil. Why should the Mexican government kill its cash cow? The government isn't just playing to the populace, as Puggy has said, when they come out against the border wall or any other measure that hopes to stem illegal immigration into the US. They are just looking out for themselves on an issue that happens to play well with the people as well. Is it any wonder that the Mexican goverment has no interest in fundamentally improving the country, economically and otherwise, when they are already reaping the benefits of a vastly superior economy without lifting a finger? In this regard, a border wall may actually benefit the nation of Mexico in that it will force the country's government to improve its own economy, since US currency will be harder and harder for the government of Mexico to get without any effort as time goes on. This will then force the government of Mexico to actually take a look in the mirror and fundamentally change things, especially education.

PS: From what I know of education in Mexico(girlfriend works at a school that is 75% Mexican students), if a child does not attend school in Mexico for the first few years of education, they are then not allowed to participate in the education system. I believe the cutoff is 6th grade. So if a kid is with his parents in the US for a few years, then they return to Mexico, their child is then not allowed to be enrolled in Mexican schools. Some incentive to return to Mexico, eh?

 

[WildCat]

I want to have your children. Oh, wait, I can't. Anyway, well said.

DR

And I'm sure you and fishbob will feel the same when it comes time to find a contractor for that new kitchen.

 

[Axenos]

Quick opinion:

1. It's all political.

2. If they wanna be here, they're gonna get here, fence or no fence.

Thanks for your time.

 

[pipelineaudio]

Any idiots who call those against criminals

yes CRIMINALS

racist are completly clueless

You should probably take notice it is the legal hispanic community (both immigrants and native born) in my state who are at the forefront of fighting this CRIME

They are the ones who suffer the most. Everyone once in a while youll hear some bozo say it is the president's stand on abortion that got the hispanics to switch to the republican party, funny though, the big switch was while clinton was president and they lost all their jobs. Not that the republicans are doing anything about it either, but there are a few senators in the republican party with the courage to make it an issue

For all you enablers, co conspirators, aiders and abetters, how bout I walk into your house and take all your stuff? Hey its not a crime, Im just immigrating to your house and taking what I want

If were not going to fight THIS crime, why should we fight any crime?

As for this damn fence:

I dont want it. For one thing, its not going to work if the mexican government is just going to poke holes in it so they can offload their worst problems onto us

Also Im not thrilled about the environmental impact of this fence. For anyone who hasnt been to the mexico/arizona border, it is one of the most beautiful places in the world, with some amazing wildlife. Except for the risk of getting shot by a coyote or a mule, or some other mexican thief, its a really cool place to visit

Regarding busting people for hiring illegals, its NOWHERE near as easy as it might at first appear. Those who try it are attacked pretty severely by all manner of kooks and politicians

But i agree, it should be done