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The Universe is Deterministic

Quantum indeterminism, and Bell's theorem that shows determinism and locality cant both be true.

a) That doesn't translate into "free will". If you're willing to say that the brain is just an implementation of physics, then neither "physics determines whether I buy the taco or not" NOR "whether I buy the taco or not depends on entirely random quantum dice-rolls" gives you "my free will decides whether to buy the taco".

b) Many worlds is determinate.
 
If you're willing to say that the brain is just an implementation of physics


I accept that the brain obeys the laws of physics (of course), and thus at its deepest fundamental level must obey indeterministic quantum theory. Before quantum theory everything was definate, things had a definate position, things interact in a definitve way, but quantum theory does away with all of that by saying that the most accurate model we have is not a definitive, but instead assignes probabilities to them. So here we have a theory that is extremely concepually puzzling, but it is one of the most powerful tools to predict things science has ever had in its hands, so it can not be ignored, no matter how puzzling it is.

What chooses these probablilities to make them definate? For example, time reversal symetry should mean that milk jumps out of coffee just as often as it dissolves into it, that people get younger looking as often as they get older looking, we can influence the past just as much as we can effect the future. All of that is wrong, and comes into violent conflict with how we psychologically view the universe.

What process chooses the potential probabilities of quatum mechanics, and makes them the definitive world we observe? Thats what i dont get, and is the aspect that could come into play here. It seems as if quantum theory leaves this area open to intuition and interpretation rather than actually explaining what chooses these possibilities to form our reality.
 
The basis of science and logic would fail.



Yes, almost certainly. Of course it's hard to make completely general statements, but a failure of causality means simply that cause and effect can no longer be separated, that effects can travel back in time and affect their causes, you can kill your own grandfather before you're born, etc.

So therefore you cant toss out causality because it would lead to paradox. No way around it. And you can't toss relativity either (so as to allow for non-causality-violating, non-time-travel, useful FTL) because there's too much evidence. So nondeterminism is pretty much "inescapable" given that.

Is that a good summary?
 
So therefore you cant toss out causality because it would lead to paradox. No way around it. And you can't toss relativity either (so as to allow for non-causality-violating, non-time-travel, useful FTL) because there's too much evidence. So nondeterminism is pretty much "inescapable" given that.

Is that a good summary?

Yes, modulo tossing out something even more fundamental (as MW does).
 
So here we have a theory that is extremely concepually puzzling, but it is one of the most powerful tools to predict things science has ever had in its hands, so it can not be ignored, no matter how puzzling it is.

No one is ignoring QM.

What chooses these probablilities to make them definate? For example, time reversal symetry should mean that milk jumps out of coffee just as often as it dissolves into it, that people get younger looking as often as they get older looking, we can influence the past just as much as we can effect the future.

No, time reversal symmetry does not say that.

What process chooses the potential probabilities of quatum mechanics, and makes them the definitive world we observe? Thats what i dont get, and is the aspect that could come into play here. It seems as if quantum theory leaves this area open to intuition and interpretation rather than actually explaining what chooses these possibilities to form our reality.

There's a perfectly concrete proposal for how that happens that involves nothing new or unknown and is consistent with all experimental evidence (namely that things simply evolve according to the Schrodinger equation).

But regardless, why does that uncertainty have anything whatsoever to do with "consciousness"? It's a complete non-sequitor.
 
Yep. Evidence to the contrary?

What evidence or justification do you have for your belief that our "will" is not "free"? I'm not in here to advocate a certain belief one way or the other, but to ask questions. I'd be curious to know how one could have evidence on this for either direction. What do you think would prove free will? What do you think would disprove free will?
 
The same way that philosophers and scientists have done for over 2000 years. Don't pretend, Zeuzzz, that you are holding a slam-obviously true view and act incredulous when someone disagrees. The nature of consciousness and free will---are they actual forces changing the course of things, or are they just patterns that form in the clockworks?---are longstanding questions in philosophy. Look it up.

So then what is the way in which you answer this longstanding question? And do you think this finally closes the 2000 years of debate?
 
What would be this more fundamental thing? I don't think I saw his post.

"MW" refers to the so-called "Many Worlds" interpretation of QM. See the thread for some discussion of it. One has to abandon the idea that there is only one "world"; specifically, that an experiment produces only one of its possible outcomes rather than all of them.
 
I haven't read every single post in this thread but have browsed through for a general flavour of the debate.

I was fortunate enough to have coffee on Sunday morning at TAM London with David Deutsch. We talked briefly about QM. Now I know some of his theories are contentious but his work is built on Everett's work which Deutsch and his supporters deduce to be essential. It completely redefines what Probability means. According to them the Copenhagen Interpretation's use of 'Probability' is logically flawed. Everett's work is a little beyond me but it boils down to the Wave Function definition. In MW theories the Wave Function describes a lack of knowledge about the state of a system which is actually deterministic while in CI (et al.) the Wave Function is a property of the system which is probabilistic. In MW the probability is which universe you are in which you cannot determine until you measure it.

I no longer know which interpretation I prefer. I think MW interpretations have many things going for them but the sheer impracticality of creating an entire set of universes for every quantum state for the entirety of time seems very very wrong to me.

Unless... it just occurred to me, there does already exist a Universe or set of universes in which each quantum state exists and no 'splitting' takes place. This feels better and sits with Deutsch's own interpretation of interference between universes causing wave-like phenomena such as those in the Double Slit experiment.

Such a Universe or set of universes sounds rather like a Quantum Computer...
 
I no longer know which interpretation I prefer. I think MW interpretations have many things going for them but the sheer impracticality of creating an entire set of universes for every quantum state for the entirety of time seems very very wrong to me.
With a few hints from Sol, I've begun to think of the universe as a complex probability wave function, and when it 'splits', it gains a new set of probability density ripples corresponding to each of the outcomes - including superposed representations of us as observers.

Dropping pebbles in a 4D (nD?) pond...
 
I was fortunate enough to have coffee on Sunday morning at TAM London with David Deutsch. We talked briefly about QM. Now I know some of his theories are contentious but his work is built on Everett's work which Deutsch and his supporters deduce to be essential. It completely redefines what Probability means.

Yes, I agree with that.

According to them the Copenhagen Interpretation's use of 'Probability' is logically flawed.

I wouldn't go that far. It's not on a firm footing, it's probably incomplete, but I wouldn't say it's "logically flawed". After all, it works extremely well, so it's at least almost right. It's pretty rare that something with flawed logic at its root works that well.

I no longer know which interpretation I prefer. I think MW interpretations have many things going for them but the sheer impracticality of creating an entire set of universes for every quantum state for the entirety of time seems very very wrong to me.

Many people have that reaction. But think about the enormous complexity inherent in all macroscopic physical systems, even classical ones. A classically chaotic system is completely impossible to simulate on any computer beyond a certain point, because the precision required grows exponentially with time step. The same goes for vanilla QM (irrespective of the issue of measurement). For example, it's possible to simulate a QM computer on a standard classical computer, but the number of classical operations required grows exponentially with the number of qbits the QM computer has (that's a basic fact about QM that's independent of MW versus CI).

All large systems are incredibly complicated when you study them in detail, and MW only differs from the CI when macroscopic systems (measuring devices) are involved. So it's really not clear at all that MW is one bit more complex than Copenhagen (and in fact it's impossible to be sure, since Copenhagen never actually defines measurement or says what actually happens during one).

With a few hints from Sol, I've begun to think of the universe as a complex probability wave function, and when it 'splits', it gains a new set of probability density ripples corresponding to each of the outcomes - including superposed representations of us as observers.

Dropping pebbles in a 4D (nD?) pond...

Yes, not a bad way to say it. And really, the pond contains all its own pebbles and their dynamics, because at least in principle the entire universe should have a wavefunction which simply evolves according to the total Hamiltonian. Such a concept is incomprehensible using CI, because measurement is some kind of vaguely described deus ex machina.
 
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What is "the outcome"? Please elaborate. This sounds like some sort of God character to me :rolleyes:

"The outcome": a bunch of mechanistic and/or quantum-mechanical processes occur in a brain-shaped vat of chemicals. After these processes occur, the vat is in a different state than before. The "before" state is a brain containing the thought, "I wonder if I should have another taco", and the "after" state is a brain containing the thought, "No, I shan't." Or maybe a brain containing the thought "May as well".
 
"The outcome": a bunch of mechanistic and/or quantum-mechanical processes occur in a brain-shaped vat of chemicals.


So at the basis of it, we have non determinsitic quantum physics still coming into play. And an area of science (nerochemistry/neurophysics) that is still in its extremely early stages. So non deterministic quantum/consciousness effects can not be ruled out at this stage by my reckoning. Twould be foolish to do so given how sucessful QT has proved and how much we have to learn about the brain and consciousness.

After these processes occur, the vat is in a different state than before. The "before" state is a brain containing the thought, "I wonder if I should have another taco", and the "after" state is a brain containing the thought, "No, I shan't." Or maybe a brain containing the thought "May as well".


But the universe already "knows" what the person will decide, according to the deterministic view, right? Infact, he has no decision at all to begin with. And neither do you in replying to this post. Right?
 
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