The Ultimate Unstoppable Chi Warrior

[LFTKBS]

I forgot, in my brief absence, how patient you all are.What ticks me off here is this:

"It was this monumental calculation that my physics class did in high school. Basically we figured out the forces that would be exerted by the fall, and then using the various strengths of bone, connective tissue, muscle, etc, determined that if a person could use all of his lower body perfectly they could dampen the force and come out unharmed (but probably very very sore). And we didn't even consider going into a roll, which would help alot. "

Based on rocket's writing style and other factors, I'm guessing that he graduated high school fairly recently - within the last four years or so. So he should still have this "calculation" reasonably fresh in his mind. Now, are you telling me that they actually came up with a model in a high school physics class that incorporates various attributes of bone, connective tissue, and muscle, including shear, compression, and deformation? No. No no no.

Rocket, if this "calculation" really occured, why don't you explain it to us?

 

[Mid]

...snip...
Well maybe we can attempt a quick calculation now.
10 stories would be approximately 25 metres.
So an object falling would take
2.25 seconds
So would be travelling 22.5 m/second when they hit the ground (just under 50mph)
So the question is, firstly, can the body take deceleration of 22.5m/s to 0 over a space of the length of your bent legs, and absorb all that kinetic energy entirely with tendons, muscles and bones.

I'l have to get back to this in a bit as I'm at work.

There are other factors that could come into play here, or at least I would have thought so, apart from gravity such as air resistance. Although in my A level maths we always assumed that away so I'm not certain how important a factor that would be; I suppose bagginess of clothing would also have an impact here.

Factors such as the nature of the landing surface etc. would I assume also be important. Can't really say how important all these factors would be as it's been ten years since I've had to do these types of calculations and my recollection is hazy. However, I’m not certain I would want to dismiss the extremely theoretic possibility of intact survival completely until I saw all the equations if they can be provided (and then I would probably have to go and do some revision.)

 

[chillzero]

I have a very uneasy feeling about where this poster is going with this.

1 - opening post shows little critical thinking in the statement "Which is true, give or take a few stories".

2- This person then goes on to advocate hanging yourself daily "to build up defenses against strangulation".

3- Doesn't like to deal with real practising martial artists who may be well placed to advise on this matter, because "all the people there don't have much imagination". Reading what is claimed as the responses to previous questions, I would suggest that the questions have been put to a very small number of martial artists. My own experience has been completely different. The statement "For those people, if something is difficult and extraordinary, they don't go for it" doesn't make sense to me. Training for martial arts is difficult. The degree to which they perfect their art, and move through the various belts, schools - whatever the stages are- is extraordinary.

4- Then there is the suggestion that a teacher supported their class in calculating that they could happily jump off a building with no harm. Is that really the kind of thing a teacher, in this litigious society, is going to promote to a class of impressionable teenagers?

I agree with LFTKBS that this may be a younger poster. However, I will not be surprised if this poster becomes surly, then aggressive, and then an outright pain in the neck.

I may be wrong - I hope I am, and I don't intend any offense by this post, but what I read between the lines here concerns me - particularly the hanging thing.

 

[Ashles]

I agree cabby about the hanging thing. That is obviously ridiculous as strangulation is done by preventing either air flow or blood flow. No amount of working out or preparation in the world will protect you from appropriately placed neck pressure. You can't build up musculature here you don't have any (eg over the front of the throat or over veins outside the muscles).

Proper strangulation (if you'll excuse the unpleasant subject) is not just placing your hands round the neck and squeezing.

If you are a martial arts expert and you are attacked by someone in this way then you will have several approaches to fealing with the problem. Hanging yourself repeatedly would be the most stupid and pointless of these methods.

If you are attacked by a martial arts expert who knows what they're doing strangulation-wise, hanging yourself regularly isn't going to help you one iota.

And Mid, I strongly disagree that over 25 metres air resistance is going to have any significant part to play. At absolute most possibly 1 mph either way, but it's really not going to be relevant.

The surface you land on will make more of a difference obviously, but that's not really what we were talking about. The claim is that the body alone can compensate for the energies involved in the drop, so we must assume a hard surface.

 

[Ripley Twenty-Nine]

All I can offer for this topic is my experience being in the martial arts for many, many years. I have studied styles such as Goju-Ryu, Tae Kwon Do and Ishynryu.

In all of the time I have studied, and in all of the tournaments and martial arts demonstrations that I have attended, I have seen some amazing things.. A guy breaking one ton of ice with his head (On the second try.. Ouch!), impressive board breaking displays, masters so good with a bo staff that they almost move faster than you can see. I once saw the guys who were in the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movies at a demonstration; these guys were incredible the way they could jump and kick.. It almost looked like they were 'floating'.

It showed me what the human body is capable of with years and years of dedication and training. But, guess what? No magic. Never, ever, did I see something that was unexplainable. Nothing that could ever be attributed to some outside spiritual force. Focus and training, nothing more.

It cheapens the martial arts when styles promote these 'supernatural' powers and use the word 'Chi' as though it implies magic.

Be very, very cautious of amazing claims. Check out 'Yellow Bamboo' if you want a great example of a style tries to promote magical 'Chi' powers, but has been debunked time and time again.

 

[Mid]

Ashles, after a bit of thought after posting my reply I think you are right that air resistance would be of minimal importance; I also agree that in the lack of further evidence we should assume a nice horizontal concrete pavement as the landing surface.

I suppose the point of my post was wondering out loud how rocketdodger could have came to the answer in his (or hers) post and if it was at all feasible if we pushed our assumptions to a reasonable maximum. The easiest way to deal with this would of course be if we had his calculations.

 

[chillzero]

All I can offer for this topic is my experience being in the martial arts for many, many years. I have studied styles such as Goju-Ryu, Tae Kwon Do and Ishynryu.

In all of the time I have studied, and in all of the tournaments and martial arts demonstrations that I have attended, I have seen some amazing things.. A guy breaking one ton of ice with his head (On the second try.. Ouch!), impressive board breaking displays, masters so good with a bo staff that they almost move faster than you can see. I once saw the guys who were in the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movies at a demonstration; these guys were incredible the way they could jump and kick.. It almost looked like they were 'floating'.

It showed me what the human body is capable of with years and years of dedication and training. But, guess what? No magic. Never, ever, did I see something that was unexplainable. Nothing that could ever be attributed to some outside spiritual force. Focus and training, nothing more.

Exactly. You put this better than I did.

This is why I took issue with the comment:
"If I told them I wanted to be able to smash rocks with my bare hands they would first ask "why" and then tell me "it would be pointless if you could do that because it probably won't help you win a fight in the real world." "

Many wouldn't respond like this - because they do it themselves. They may ask why you would want to do it - out of interest in your motives, and your possible dedication to actually learning.

It isn't about helping win fights either. It is often about publicity (e.g. for recruitment) and demonstration. It can be about training.

Another point is that many of the martial arts do not seek to win fights - it is a physical and mental discipline for them, or else a form of self defense - which isn't the same as winning fights.

 

[Ashles]

Ashles, after a bit of thought after posting my reply I think you are right that air resistance would be of minimal importance; I also agree that in the lack of further evidence we should assume a nice horizontal concrete pavement as the landing surface.

I suppose the point of my post was wondering out loud how rocketdodger could have came to the answer in his (or hers) post and if it was at all feasible if we pushed our assumptions to a reasonable maximum. The easiest way to deal with this would of course be if we had his calculations.

True.

Or indeed I'd be happy to just see where he got the information about the various factors.

Where did he get the data for tendon tensile strength, effects of muscle on deceleration, that kind of stuff.

Or perhaps merely a list of all the factors he feels would be relevant to the calculation.

It doesn't really sound like a high school calclation though does it.

If it did happen it was probably more likely a teacher's attempt to take the class through some applied mechanics. The actual figures weren't the point of the exercise.
But if this were the case then it is pretty irresponsible.

 

[LFTKBS]

If it did happen it was probably more likely a teacher's attempt to take the class through some applied mechanics.

Don't worry; no such exercise or calculation occurred.

 

[richardm]

Additional note - I work 13 stories up - I just looked out of the window from the perspective of someone about to fall in the region of that distance.

This just cannot in any way be done. Not even close.

Never mind no damage - you would almost certainly die.

The alt.suicide.holiday people reckon that statistics show that six stories is enough to give you a 90% certainty of death but with no guarantees about how long death will take to come, and bad luck if you're one of the 10%. The probability increases with increasing height.

I've read elsewhere (in fact I thought it was a.s.h but apparently not) that 10 stories is adequate to guarantee death. All this is assuming you don't land on something conveniently soft, naturally. So I'd think 13 stories would certainly do the trick. Let's not find out, eh?

 

[Ashles]

Well maybe we can attempt a quick calculation now.
10 stories would be approximately 25 metres.
So an object falling would take
2.25 seconds
So would be travelling 22.5 m/second when they hit the ground (just under 50mph)
So the question is, firstly, can the body take deceleration of 22.5m/s to 0 over a space of the length of your bent legs, and absorb all that kinetic energy entirely with tendons, muscles and bones.

Additional calculations:
Distance of deceleration is difference between standing and couching. I'll call it 70cm if that's okay.

Moving 0.7m at 22.5 m/s would take 0.03 seconds

So deceleration is change in speed/time taken = 22.5/0.03 = 750m/s/s or somewhere in the region of 76gs

Has my maths gone wrong somewhere here?

Even if we assume a generous tenth of a second to slow down you are still deceleration at 225m/s/s or almost 23g

For comparison here is a page that shows what g-forces may do to you G-Force table

Planes today are so fast and nimble that standard evasive maneuvers can add nine times the weight of gravity, or nine g's, to the mass of a pilot's body. That amount of force causes fatigue, blackouts, even death as gravity drives blood and oxygen from the brain, lungs and heart."

The devastating car crash of Princess Diana of Wales in 1997 was estimated to range somewhere between 70 - 100 g's. This accident was intense enough to pull the pulmonary artery from her heart. It's important to understand that velocity alone plays no role in the symptoms of injuries of a human.

No damage resulting from a drop of ten stories appears to be absolutely impossible from even the most rudimentary calculations.

ETA - 70cm might be a little strict - I was thinking about the difference between legs straight and legs bent, but you would also curl forward.
But I don't think it's going to make a great deal of difference. The shock to your body will be phenomenal. The effect on internal organs never seems to be considered when people make these claims. It's not just whether your leg muscles can take the strain.

 

[Ripley Twenty-Nine]

Exactly. You put this better than I did.

This is why I took issue with the comment:
"If I told them I wanted to be able to smash rocks with my bare hands they would first ask "why" and then tell me "it would be pointless if you could do that because it probably won't help you win a fight in the real world." "

Many wouldn't respond like this - because they do it themselves. They may ask why you would want to do it - out of interest in your motives, and your possible dedication to actually learning.

It isn't about helping win fights either. It is often about publicity (e.g. for recruitment) and demonstration. It can be about training.

Another point is that many of the martial arts do not seek to win fights - it is a physical and mental discipline for them, or else a form of self defense - which isn't the same as winning fights.

Any martial arts club worth their salt will not teach you how to win a fight. In most clubs I was in, you would be immediately kicked out if you were trying to start fights. In the 16 or so years I have known martial arts, I have never gotten into a fight. Not one.

Anyone wanting to learn martial arts so they can fight well or become an 'Ultimate Unstoppable Chi Warrior' are missing the entire point, and want to learn for exactly all the wrong reasons.. And they're usually the ones that stick with it for less than a year, and then quit because they're not able to fly or disappear.

 

[jmercer]

Not much to add here - you guys did a really good job.

Was this a hit and run? I haven't seen him repost since the OP and the flurry following it.

 

[Floating Egg]

I posted a thread back in March concerning Qigong and the possibility of imparting heat using the hands. The common explanation by Qigong practitioners is that the heat is a byproduct of generating Ki.

I had some pretty good replies to that thread, but I was kind of disappointed about my inability to find a concrete explanation for the heat generation.

After browsing the forums, I found a link to a newsgroup post by a fellow named EUGENE V. COLUCCI. In the post he stated that "When breathing deeply and rhythmically, a relaxed person can send a greater volume of blood to the extremities (this includes the fingers) per unit of time. This, in turn, can raise the temperature of the extremities."

Further research resulted in a biofeedback therapy that, according to WebMD "uses a device that measures the skin temperature of the hands while you try to increase it, often through visualization or guided imagery. For instance, you may listen to a tape that stirs images of blood flowing to your hands. Increasing blood flow to the hands makes the hands warmer."

Does this seem like a viable explanation for what's happening when a Qigong practitioner generates heat with his or her hands?

rec.martial-arts thread: http://groups-beta.google.com/group...6907aaa7e8c/f43071b9fc9a068f#f43071b9fc9a068f

WebMD article: http://my.webmd.com/hw/health_guide_atoz/aa83624.asp?z=1826_00000_0000_ep_02

 

[LFTKBS]

math stuff

Nice work, Ashles.

Rocketdodger never did this sort of calculation; he just made the whole thing up. It's clear he's just some radki dimwit trying to dress up his delusion as science.

I'm probably being a lot more rude than I need to be, but frankly I'm a little tired of being lied to.

 

[rocketdodger]

Thank you to all posters who have left personal attacks out of your replies.

First of all, the title of this thread is purposfully crazy. I made it that way to attract anyone with any information on the subject when they are browsing the forums. I do not wish to become an ultimate unstoppable chi warrior (ok I do but its just a pipe dream, we all have them).

LFTKBS, you are not a nice person. I will only become defensive and surly with you (if I do) because you initiated hostility towards me.

And to a few others who felt offended by my remarks on "realistic" martial arts sites, please do not be. I was not making a reference to sites hosting traditional martial arts like karate, aikido, TKD, etc. I was referring to sites hosting systems that are said to be "realistic" self-defense systems that are only concerned with winning a fight, bullshido.net is a perfect example. Invariably if one posts in their forums about anything other than useful fighting skills, they will get flamed (I know because I have tried). The sites hosting traditional systems are much better, with cordial members and friendly attitudes, but most of them are hobbiests and I don't have the time to tend to 10 forums at once so I came here.

As I see from the number of replies in one day, I may have hit the jackpot. Thanks to all of you who have given links to useful sites and who have shared what you know. Please keep it up!

Now, about this "calculation" -- despite what LFTKBS condescendingly hinted at, it was more than 4 years ago. But I have a fairly good memory and I think it was just the teacher walking us through kinetics. He fed us the numbers we used, so I don't know if they were legit. However, I can honestly say that they didn't seem that strange at the time, and what I have heard about the strength of human tissues since then has been at least as amazing to me. So I don't think they were just pulled out of his rear end.

Thanks for taking a stab at it Ashles. You seem to be on the right track, except for the last part. Once the guy lands and starts decelerating, he will be going slower and slower, so the landing time will actually be much more than 0.03 seconds. I don't really feel like figuring out the exact numbers that would result (but consistent flaming by posters here will surely prod me into it eventually ) but I think it turns out OK. It can easily be calculated using discrete math but that is a pain, I'm sure calculus can also be used but it would take us a bit longer to figure it out that way. Its been over 5 years since I took differential equations...

 

[LFTKBS]

LFTKBS, you are not a nice person.

I am when I don't have to listen to the same ridiculous nonsense over and over.

I don't really feel like figuring out the exact numbers that would result

How surprising.

Look, you're not saying it's magic, and I appreciate that, but you're also not even attempting to work it out logically or rationally or mathematically. There have been people who trained their entire lives in the martial arts who couldn't drop 25m without severe injury or death. It has nothing to do with "computer-like reflexes" or focus or any of that garbage; it's a simple function of velocity and time.

 

[Ashles]

Thanks for taking a stab at it Ashles. You seem to be on the right track, except for the last part. Once the guy lands and starts decelerating, he will be going slower and slower, so the landing time will actually be much more than 0.03 seconds. I don't really feel like figuring out the exact numbers that would result (but consistent flaming by posters here will surely prod me into it eventually ) but I think it turns out OK. It can easily be calculated using discrete math but that is a pain, I'm sure calculus can also be used but it would take us a bit longer to figure it out that way. Its been over 5 years since I took differential equations...

That's why I allowed for a huge margin of error and allowed 0.1 seconds, over three times the length. Anything beyond that is really going to be in the realm of the fantastic I would imagine.

I don't think it works out anything like okay.

And why would you think discrete math would be more appropriate to what is essentially a mechanics problem?
And what is the relevence of differential equations?

If you wish to argue the figures that's no problem, but it might be useful if you provide some of your own rather than just saying rather nonspecifically "I think it turns out OK".

And we haven't even mentioned the restrictions of nerve transmission time yet - by the time you tell your muscles to react to hitting the ground the whole thing's already over.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Ok, rocket. You have crossed way over the line of rational thinking into the realm of fantasy right from the first of your post. First off, you seem to believe many myths and inevident things. Monks not being hurt by bricks? C'mon, that's just a parlor trick, it's not a function of superior body/thought control. Aikidoka falling off of rootops unharmed? Skydivers can do the same. It's just a matter of rolling the correct way.

Now, let's get back to the question of the 10 story fall. It's a stupid freaking question. You may as well be asking if a person can throw fireballs like Ryu can. Go to bullshido.com and learn something about martial arts reality. Right now, you are lost in the fantasy land of kung fu movies.

 

[rocketdodger]

I have said numerous times that I DONT think a person could ever do this! For the exact reasons you are all pointing out. It is just impossible for a human mind to exert the control that would be needed.

IF YOU DIDN"T READ THAT FIRST PARAGRAPH GO BACK AND DO IT.

SEE ABOVE PARAGRAPH.

What I AM saying, is that IF the control could be had, then based on tissue strength ALONE, it would be possible.

I say that discrete math could be used because that is what lazy people (and computer scientists like myself) use when we face a problem that elegant calculus might be able to solve. In this case, for example, we could break down the landing into, say, 100 discrete parts. Divide the 0.7 meters up into 100 0.07m parts, then assume the person will decelerate a certain amount over each part, up to the maximum force they can withstand. But I don't know what that force is, it was given to me, I don't remember it.

As you can see, this gets complex, because after the first 0.07 meters (in our above example) the body will be moving a little slower than 22.5 m/s, and so you have to recalculate the numbers for the next part. And so on and so on. I know there is a simple way to do this with a differential equation but ... actually, since its summer and I work on my own schedule, maybe I will pull out my old books and work on it.