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The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 28

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Stacyhs

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This thread has been opened to continue the conversation about the Amanda Knox case. Under absolutely no circumstances should there ever be any conversation about the reason another member might post, his/her mental health or any similar issue. Otherwise, posts from previous versions of this thread may be freely referenced here.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Loss Leader
 
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She won't even be that when the ECHR rules in her favor and Italy corrects that mistake.

It's a pity that Guede hasn't apologized to the Kerchers for his heinous and wicked crime against their dearly beloved daughter, sister, niece, cousin, granddaughter, future aunt. Knox and Sollecito have nothing to apologize for since they had nothing to do with Kercher's death.

Your facts are all scrambled up.

Yeah, Guede didn't apologize for his hand in their daughter's murder. But he did make a phony fake apology for being sorry he was innocent while people other than himself did all the criminal actions. This kind of transparently self serving excuse is even more insulting than just remaining silent. But apparently the higher Italian courts don't think so because they gave him an official commendation and seal of approval for coming up with this fake story apology about the rape and murder victim consensually fooling around with him behind her boyfriends back to explain why all the evidence used to convict him proves he's actually innocent.

No PGP has ever cared or noticed. Meredith's champions I'm sure.
 
She won't even be that when the ECHR rules in her favor and Italy corrects that mistake.

It's a pity that Guede hasn't apologized to the Kerchers for his heinous and wicked crime against their dearly beloved daughter, sister, niece, cousin, granddaughter, future aunt. Knox and Sollecito have nothing to apologize for since they had nothing to do with Kercher's death.

Your facts are all scrambled up.

The guilter-PR shaming campaign against Knox is something that has continued even these past three years since both she and Sollecito were exonerated.

It's telling that this campaign gives the actual murderer a free pass. All for Meredith.
 
This was posted a few days ago on TJMK. The over-the-top self-praise reminds me of Trump! They are so desperate for attention that they're recycling past junk.

Friday, May 11, 2018

Overview Of All Our Powerpoints For Those Many On Media Threads Praising Them

Posted by The TJMK Main Posters

1. Post Overview

These brilliant Powerpoints have been getting effusive praise online and in emails by many who began with them.

Others have posted asking how to find them. We are very grateful for their interest. Here they all are, the complete set. One is by James Raper, one by Fly By Night, two by Nikki, and the others by that indefatigable frog Kermit.

They are often very funny, mostly bothersome to the humorless Knox attack-sheep, and always technically excellent. But their main draw appears to be that they are so explanatory, so highly compelling.

Watch a few and the sense that the Italians got things right can get to be unshakable. While videos can be telling, Powerpoints look to be even more telling. Other victim sites might well benefit from this model.

Too bad the Supreme Court didn't see these 'brilliant' powerpoints before excoriating the police and prosecution and then acquitting Knox and Sollecito. :rolleyes:
 
The guilter-PR shaming campaign against Knox is something that has continued even these past three years since both she and Sollecito were exonerated.

It's telling that this campaign gives the actual murderer a free pass. All for Meredith.

They haven't been exonerated. Read the MR. 'Strong suspicions' remain.

The only way Knox can explain her suspicious behaviour is to blame Mignini, who by the way issues hundreds of prosecutions weekly, as his job.

As for Raff, he's baffled as to why he can't just walk into a Questura with a knife in his pocket.

Talk about a sense of entitlement. One of Hare's diagnostics for psychopathy.

Mignini describes Raff as 'icy cold'.
 
This was posted a few days ago on TJMK. The over-the-top self-praise reminds me of Trump! They are so desperate for attention that they're recycling past junk.



Too bad the Supreme Court didn't see these 'brilliant' powerpoints before excoriating the police and prosecution and then acquitting Knox and Sollecito. :rolleyes:



It's worse than Trump - it's positively Soviet-era Pravda-esque!!

The really funny/tragic thing is that Quennell simply cannot/does not see the deeply-embedded ironic contradiction in his position. On the one hand, he is continually desperate to convince others (and himself...?) that "the sense that the Italians got things right can get to be unshakable". But he can only apply this "logic" to the two convicting lower courts (Massei and Nencini) and one of the SC-level courts (Chieffi). However, he is forced to avoid claiming "the Italians got things right" to the Hellmann court, and, critically, the Marasca SC panel.

So in other words, in Quennell's bizarro-world, the convicting courts show Italian criminal justice to be wonderful and infallible etc etc..... but the acquitting courts - including the SC panel which ultimately and definitively acquitted Knox and Sollecito on all murder-related charges - DO NOT show Italian criminal justice to be wonderful and infallible etc etc. And logically, this must by definition destroy Quennell's fanciful claims about the excellence of Italian criminal justice!! If he was making this claim in the aftermath of the Massei convictions and before the Hellmann appeal trial (as indeed he was), then at least logically he'd have a defensible position. But ever since the Hellmann acquittals, he simply cannot have it both ways.

The truth of the matter is this: lower level Italian courts - especially courts of first instance - appear to be of very poor quality and serve only a very limited role in the application of justice. In fact, they appear in so many ways to be similar in scope and remit to arraignment-level courts (or Grand Juries) in places such as the UK or US. The heavier lifting in Italy appears to get done in the appeal-level courts.

I'd add to this my opinion that the multi-level system in Italy for all significant "felony-level" criminal trials is a ridiculous waste of money, a poor way to apply justice, and hugely unnecessarily long and complex. All that is needed is a properly-constituted court to try the case once and once only. And if that court turns out to have acted improperly or unlawfully, or if evidence placed before that court turns out to have been presented improperly or unlawfully, or if new evidence comes to light, then there should be a fair opportunity for appeal. Italy's multi-level approach - where prosecutors get as many repeat bites at the cherry as the defence - appears, yet again, to be a hangover from the Mussolini era (for reasons which may be obvious....).

So: Italy's criminal justice system is hugely unfit for purpose. The fiasco of the Knox/Sollecito trial process only serves to illustrate this (while driving a coach and horses through Quennell's ridiculous claims about how great Italy's system is). Every disinterested observer can see this full well. There's an enormous amount of literature (both academic and journalistic) on the subject. Whether the Knox/Sollecito trial process will further serve to illuminate the massive problems inherent in the Italian system is, unfortunately for justice in Italy, questionable. We've seen how it effectively took a demand from the EU and the European Council to force Italy to abandon its dreadful inquisitorial system - and yet we've also seen how Italy managed to fudge even that with a clumsy, half-hearted legislative change which allowed way too much reactionary wiggle-room.

Italy is a broken state, unfortunately. It is riddled with corruption, political patronage, shocking public services, organised crime, and a more-or-less institutionalised grey/black economy. I tried brokering a significant business collaboration between a (very large) UK and Italian company in the early 2000s. But we had to abandon the whole thing when we dug deep enough to realise just how much embedded corruption, tax evasion, crazy courts system and two-faced dealings were going on. And I know for certain that this was very, very far from unique. The Knox/Sollecito trial fiasco is just another example of how broken Italy is. The only good thing that can be said about it is that in the Marasca SC panel Knox and Sollecito finally found a judicial entity that could see the case for what it actually was.
 
They haven't been exonerated. Read the MR. 'Strong suspicions' remain.


Uhhh yeah, they've been exonerated. When a country's Supreme Court definitively acquits you on all charges related to a murder, states that there was never a single piece of credible, reliable evidence against you, lambasts the police and prosecutors for their shockingly bad and improper performance in pursuing and prosecuting you, excoriates the lower convicting courts for the unlawful ways in which they convicted you, and states that it's a certainty that with the "evidence" set as it stands, no properly-constituted court could ever convict you in the future....

..... they yeah, you've been exonerated.

(And, by the way, and for the umpteenth time, please try to understand the concept of the Marasca SC verdict consciously ensuring that it didn't come into conflict with the two prior settled SC verdicts which related to this case: the Guede verdict and the Knox criminal slander verdict. If you manage to understand this, then you should probably be able to understand why certain parts of the Marasca MR read as they do....)




The only way Knox can explain her suspicious behaviour is to blame Mignini, who by the way issues hundreds of prosecutions weekly, as his job.


1) Mignini doesn't "issue hundreds of prosecutions weekly". What a stupid thing to say.

2) Knox has no "suspicious behaviour" to explain away.




As for Raff, he's baffled as to why he can't just walk into a Questura with a knife in his pocket.


Yeah. Cos walking into a police HQ (that's what we call them in English) with a knife in your pocket might be described as somewhat foolish in the circumstances. But if you think that has/had anything whatsoever to offer in terms of evidence of Sollecito's participation in the Kercher murder, well then you're clutching at straws even more than I had thought......




Talk about a sense of entitlement. One of Hare's diagnostics for psychopathy.


Wow. No words required.



Mignini describes Raff as 'icy cold'.


Yeah: Mignini's a danger to justice - a nutter who things he has Sherlock-Holmes-esque levels of sleuthing deduction (ridiculous enough in itself, before even considering that Holmes was purely a fictional construct with fictional powers that were completely absent in the real world...), and who clearly developed a confirmation-biassed, tunnel-vision belief in the guilt of Knox and Sollecito (and then went searching for evidence to "confirm" his belief, while at the same time disregarding (or failing to search for) evidence which conflicted with his belief).
 
They haven't been exonerated. Read the MR. 'Strong suspicions' remain.

The only way Knox can explain her suspicious behaviour is to blame Mignini, who by the way issues hundreds of prosecutions weekly, as his job.

As for Raff, he's baffled as to why he can't just walk into a Questura with a knife in his pocket.
Talk about a sense of entitlement. One of Hare's diagnostics for psychopathy.

Mignini describes Raff as 'icy cold'.

So am I. I have a similar flick knife on me almost all the time. I grew up with a knife on me. You might view it as a weapon, but to me, it's a great tool to have on hand. I know people that carry guns and none of them have ever committed a crime.

Your problem is that you view Raffaele and Amanda through this lens that they are guilty and that in your mind inevitably colors innocuous and innocent facts as something nefarious. You use it to support your bias. When just as reasonable explanation is that no guilty person would dare carry a knife into the police station. This is why an obective person would discard this point as irrelevant, neither incriminating or exculpatory.
 
So am I. I have a similar flick knife on me almost all the time. I grew up with a knife on me. You might view it as a weapon, but to me, it's a great tool to have on hand. I know people that carry guns and none of them have ever committed a crime.

Your problem is that you view Raffaele and Amanda through this lens that they are guilty and that in your mind inevitably colors innocuous and innocent facts as something nefarious. You use it to support your bias. When just as reasonable explanation is that no guilty person would dare carry a knife into the police station. This is why an obective person would discard this point as irrelevant, neither incriminating or exculpatory.

You've been watching too much West Side Story.

It used to be the case that in Finland every man was entitled to carry a puukko on his person. Indeed, as a kid I had several of these as souvenirs, although extremely sharp, encased in leather sheaths. People admire them for the sheer quality of craftsmanship. My male relatives put them to practical use in their everyday lives. My grandfather, as a hunting shooting farmer, had an entire makasiini of guns. The level of gun ownership being not dissimilar to the US.

However, fact is, people did use these knives as weapons when drunk or enraged with jealousy.

Now the law has changed and it's considered dodgy to even take a puukko out of the country as an innocuous tourist novelty. I did actually pick up the most beautiful handcrafted one at a Mikkeli fair, but good job I gave it away as a present before I got to the airport back, as I could have been stopped.

There is a massive difference between a Swiss knife (several penknives in one, which you fold away). Everybody in Brownies and Girl Guides had one of these.

But a flick knife? That would get you arrested for sure. They are shockingly dangerous and nasty and have one purpose only.

You are wrong my interest in the case is from the legal POV, which as you know is cold and objective (or is supposed to be). Knox and Raff's claims that they were fitted up is just nonsense,

Having looked at all of the evidence and the court process, I can see exactly why the pair were found guilty. Massei was not at all biased, whereas Hellmann was clearly influenced by sentimental feelings, together with a lack of experience of a murder case.
 
whereas Hellmann was clearly influenced by sentimental feelings, together with a lack of experience of a murder case.

So an appellate court in Italy is incapable of deducing the reality of a simple murder case now? Speaks highly of their local police and prosecutors then i'm sure who would never show such incompetence.

You've no argument. That's why every other PGP stopped posting after the final acquittal. How is it possible to argue the Italian judicial system is both simultaneously competent and simultaneously incompetent, depending on when the outcome suits your own opinion, without looking like a delusional moron? You can't. Hope this helps.
 
Uhhh yeah, they've been exonerated. When a country's Supreme Court definitively acquits you on all charges related to a murder, states that there was never a single piece of credible, reliable evidence against you, lambasts the police and prosecutors for their shockingly bad and improper performance in pursuing and prosecuting you, excoriates the lower convicting courts for the unlawful ways in which they convicted you, and states that it's a certainty that with the "evidence" set as it stands, no properly-constituted court could ever convict you in the future....

..... they yeah, you've been exonerated.

(And, by the way, and for the umpteenth time, please try to understand the concept of the Marasca SC verdict consciously ensuring that it didn't come into conflict with the two prior settled SC verdicts which related to this case: the Guede verdict and the Knox criminal slander verdict. If you manage to understand this, then you should probably be able to understand why certain parts of the Marasca MR read as they do....)




1) Mignini doesn't "issue hundreds of prosecutions weekly". What a stupid thing to say.

2) Knox has no "suspicious behaviour" to explain away.

Yeah. Cos walking into a police HQ (that's what we call them in English) with a knife in your pocket might be described as somewhat foolish in the circumstances. But if you think that has/had anything whatsoever to offer in terms of evidence of Sollecito's participation in the Kercher murder, well then you're clutching at straws even more than I had thought......


Wow. No words required.


Yeah: Mignini's a danger to justice - a nutter who things he has Sherlock-Holmes-esque levels of sleuthing deduction (ridiculous enough in itself, before even considering that Holmes was purely a fictional construct with fictional powers that were completely absent in the real world...), and who clearly developed a confirmation-biassed, tunnel-vision belief in the guilt of Knox and Sollecito (and then went searching for evidence to "confirm" his belief, while at the same time disregarding (or failing to search for) evidence which conflicted with his belief).


Well........Mignini did correctly deduce that only a woman would cover the body. Oh, wait....

Upon receipt of this news, (Jeffrey) Dahmer lured 25-year-old Joseph Bradehoft to his apartment. Bradehoft was strangled and left lying on Dahmer's bed covered with a sheet for two days
(Wikipedia)

The offender had covered her body with a blanket after killing her.

It turned out the perpetrator was a man she had recently dated.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/disturbed/201110/profiling-murderer

Police would also detail, in their official report, that Lynda's mother, Ruth, lay beside her in the basement of their home, their bodies covered with a blanket and towels over their faces.An investigation by Park Ridge police, the Cook County County Sheriff's Department and the Cook County coroner would conclude that Jeff Fuchs murdered his entire family, likely on Friday, June 14.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/subur...hs-family-murders-tl-0806-20150801-story.html
 
You've been watching too much West Side Story.

It used to be the case that in Finland every man was entitled to carry a puukko on his person. Indeed, as a kid I had several of these as souvenirs, although extremely sharp, encased in leather sheaths. People admire them for the sheer quality of craftsmanship. My male relatives put them to practical use in their everyday lives. My grandfather, as a hunting shooting farmer, had an entire makasiini of guns. The level of gun ownership being not dissimilar to the US.

However, fact is, people did use these knives as weapons when drunk or enraged with jealousy.

Now the law has changed and it's considered dodgy to even take a puukko out of the country as an innocuous tourist novelty. I did actually pick up the most beautiful handcrafted one at a Mikkeli fair, but good job I gave it away as a present before I got to the airport back, as I could have been stopped.

There is a massive difference between a Swiss knife (several penknives in one, which you fold away). Everybody in Brownies and Girl Guides had one of these.

But a flick knife? That would get you arrested for sure. They are shockingly dangerous and nasty and have one purpose only.

You are wrong my interest in the case is from the legal POV, which as you know is cold and objective (or is supposed to be). Knox and Raff's claims that they were fitted up is just nonsense,

Having looked at all of the evidence and the court process, I can see exactly why the pair were found guilty. Massei was not at all biased, whereas Hellmann was clearly influenced by sentimental feelings, together with a lack of experience of a murder case.

Nonsense. You're the one watching movies and taking your clues from them.
No offense, but you really don't have a clue. Its not that knives can't also be weapons. Of course they can. But millions of law abiding men carry a knife.

My father always had a knife on him at all times as well. He gave me a similar one when I was about ten. My best friend is a police officer and you would be hard pressed to ever finding him without his knife. Me, I keep one in the glove box of both my vehicles, my toolbox, my fishing tackle box and usually one in my pocket. When I come home at night I place it on the dresser valet with my watch.

It means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. One cannot or should not read a thing into that Raffaele had a knife on him, unless you condemn every man with a knife.
 
You've been watching too much West Side Story.

It used to be the case that in Finland every man was entitled to carry a puukko on his person. Indeed, as a kid I had several of these as souvenirs, although extremely sharp, encased in leather sheaths. People admire them for the sheer quality of craftsmanship. My male relatives put them to practical use in their everyday lives. My grandfather, as a hunting shooting farmer, had an entire makasiini of guns. The level of gun ownership being not dissimilar to the US.

However, fact is, people did use these knives as weapons when drunk or enraged with jealousy.

Now the law has changed and it's considered dodgy to even take a puukko out of the country as an innocuous tourist novelty. I did actually pick up the most beautiful handcrafted one at a Mikkeli fair, but good job I gave it away as a present before I got to the airport back, as I could have been stopped.

There is a massive difference between a Swiss knife (several penknives in one, which you fold away). Everybody in Brownies and Girl Guides had one of these.

But a flick knife? That would get you arrested for sure. They are shockingly dangerous and nasty and have one purpose only.

You are wrong my interest in the case is from the legal POV, which as you know is cold and objective (or is supposed to be). Knox and Raff's claims that they were fitted up is just nonsense,

Having looked at all of the evidence and the court process, I can see exactly why the pair were found guilty. Massei was not at all biased, whereas Hellmann was clearly influenced by sentimental feelings, together with a lack of experience of a murder case.

Ignoring all the irrelevant puukko bit, flick knives have far more than 'one purpose'. My BIL carries one and uses it quite frequently...and never against a person.

That last highlighted part is just too funny for words. As for Hellmann's "lack of experience of a murder case", we went over that ages ago. I presented a couple murder cases he had previously presided over. Or do you think the Italians would appoint unqualified judges to preside over a high profile murder case like this one was in 2011? Your assessment is nothing more than your own opinion based on nothing but ....your own opinion.
 
Ignoring all the irrelevant puukko bit, flick knives have far more than 'one purpose'. My BIL carries one and uses it quite frequently...and never against a person.

That last highlighted part is just too funny for words. As for Hellmann's "lack of experience of a murder case", we went over that ages ago. I presented a couple murder cases he had previously presided over. Or do you think the Italians would appoint unqualified judges to preside over a high profile murder case like this one was in 2011? Your assessment is nothing more than your own opinion based on nothing but ....your own opinion.

If they find her innocent they're unqualified. If they find her guilty they're qualified. I haven't seen such "objective analysis" since the google building 7 campaign :D
 
Nonsense. You're the one watching movies and taking your clues from them.
No offense, but you really don't have a clue. Its not that knives can't also be weapons. Of course they can. But millions of law abiding men carry a knife.

My father always had a knife on him at all times as well. He gave me a similar one when I was about ten. My best friend is a police officer and you would be hard pressed to ever finding him without his knife. Me, I keep one in the glove box of both my vehicles, my toolbox, my fishing tackle box and usually one in my pocket. When I come home at night I place it on the dresser valet with my watch.

It means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. One cannot or should not read a thing into that Raffaele had a knife on him, unless you condemn every man with a knife.

You forget that, to Vixen, the fact Raff held a knife in his left hand in a photo is proof he is left-handed. The fact he wore a scarf years later in a photo is evidence of him 're-enacting what he wore (despite pics of Mignini, Lumumba and Maresca also wearing scarves) and Raff having a knit cap that did not match Guede's description are all evidence of his guilt.:jaw-dropp
 
If they find her innocent they're unqualified. If they find her guilty they're qualified. I haven't seen such "objective analysis" since the google building 7 campaign :D

Considering that Hellmann outranked Massei, I'd hazard a guess that Hellmann had more experience than Massei. The PGP constantly bang on about Hellmann not having experience in criminal cases (which I disproved by providing court cases he'd presided over) but I've never seen Massei's credentials presented.
 
They haven't been exonerated. Read the MR. 'Strong suspicions' remain.

The only way Knox can explain her suspicious behaviour is to blame Mignini, who by the way issues hundreds of prosecutions weekly, as his job.

As for Raff, he's baffled as to why he can't just walk into a Questura with a knife in his pocket.

Talk about a sense of entitlement. One of Hare's diagnostics for psychopathy.

Mignini describes Raff as 'icy cold'.

Good Lord, Vixen... you crack me up. Yeah, they haven't been exonerated... :dl:
 
Good Lord, Vixen... you crack me up. Yeah, they haven't been exonerated... :dl:

The only opinion which counts, is the opinion of the Italian judiciary. This is what Boninsegna wrote in 2016 in acquitting Knox of defamation against the cops....

CONSIDERED AS FACTS AND MATTERS OF LAW

The defendant was summoned to trial by the Judge of the Preliminary hearings
with the decree of 20-Mar-2015, for the facts cited in the charges.

The case is a follow-on of a more complex and serious one, regarding the
murder of Meredith Kercher, a young English student, which occurred in Perugia
between 01-Nov and 02-Nov-2007. Those proceedings concluded with the exoneration of the defendant of murder, that she was accused of together with her
boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito....​
It is beyond me why this needs to be repeated. It may be because some cannot admit that they'd been exonerated in 2015.
 
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