The Theory of Relativity will begin to fall apart in 2016/2017

[dasmiller]

The point is

1.
So soon an anomaly is discovered the cause of it can also be equipment failures.

Depending on the anomaly, yes. The vast majority of the anomalies that I know of are either hardware or software failures.

2.
The is problematic because as i read it, staff is not allowed to speak completely open about it.

Yes. For example, satellite manufacturers aren't enthusiastic about telling the world about all the problems their spacecraft have encountered. Commercial satellite operators don't want to provide data to their competitors. Military operators don't want to let potential enemies know about weaknesses in their systems.

And this is problematic because new spacecraft are built without learning from the problems of previous spacecraft, so the same problem may occur over and over even after it's been resolved.

Not really relevant to GPS nav, though.

3.
I cannot find anything thing that say that a GPS staff not is included that kind of politic.

Oh, as far as I know, GPS isn't any more open than anyone else about the root causes of the occasional hardware failures. But they don't have any way to cover up any orbit anomalies even if they wanted to. Every spacecraft continuously broadcasts its raw clock output without any corrections or adjustments, so there's simply no way to hide an orbit anomaly.

 

[dasmiller]

One the one hand there are as you wrote several reason to believe that a serious anomaly should not be possible to hide.

On the other hand there is also reason to believe that a dilation anomaly is possible.........

I'm arguing that whether or not it's "possible," we're not seeing it on GPS, and it should be visible on GPS.

1.
Read my post above.

Which one?

2.
The main task of the GPS staff is to keep the system working, - not primary to speculate what the cause of different kind of anomalies really is.

Regardless of their "main task," they're not seeing your anomalies. And, yet again, there are some very bright people who've devoted their careers to understanding small GPS orbit deviations, so their 'main task' is exactly "to speculate what the cause of different kind of anomalies really is." You should see the level of detail they've done for modeling the effect of solar wind on GPS spacecraft, for example.

3.
So the main task is to keep clocks synchronized..

For some people, and a portion of the control segment software, yes. Since their job is centered on clock synch, you'd think they'd notice a repeatable large drift in every clock.

4.
There are many significant influences on satellites, here is a article I read today
NASA space junk experts have refined the forecast for the anticipated death plunge of a giant satellite, with the U.S. space agency now predicting the 6 1/2-ton climate probe will plummet to Earth around Sept. 23, a day earlier than previously reported.
"Re-entry is expected Sept. 23, plus or minus a day. The re-entry of UARS is advancing because of a sharp increase in solar activity since the beginning of this week," NASA officials wrote in a status update today (Sept. 16). The projection is a day earlier than a previous forecast released by NASA yesterday.
Notice plus minus one day, - just because of solar storm.
The anomaly I speak about compared to that +/- one day, - is peanuts.
Source ... http://www.space.com/12982-dead-nasa-satellite-falling-earth-sept-24.html

Yeahh . . . that's a whole different problem. At very low orbits, atmospheric drag is a big deal, and it varies because of a) spacecraft orientation, and b) fluctuations in the atmosphere due to space weather effects. a) is pretty obvious (and can easily cause the drag to vary by a factor of 10 or more), but b) isn't something we really see on the ground, but 75 miles up, the 'atmosphere' density can vary greatly from day to day, so the drag can vary greatly from day to day. That makes it very difficult to predict when a spacecraft in a circular orbit will actually reenter. The density variation really isn't an issue at higher orbits.

5.
I think I have a better world view to offer, - several huge mysteries are easy solved in the new paradigm, there are only one single hard nut left, - there must be a time dilation anomalies out there, - known, “secret” or what so ever doesn’t matter, - It’s there, - scientific ISS test will reveal it's there.

If it's wrong, it's not better. If the data doesn't support it, it's wrong.

 

[MRC_Hans]

One the one hand there are as you wrote several reason to believe that a serious anomaly should not be possible to hide.

*snip*

You are welcome to believe that a multi-billion dollar military space project is run like a grocery shop, but I can't see why anyone else should care.

5.
I think I have a better world view to offer, - several huge mysteries are easy solved in the new paradigm, there are only one single hard nut left, - there must be a time dilation anomalies out there, - known, “secret” or what so ever doesn’t matter, - It’s there, - scientific ISS test will reveal it's there.

You are welcome to think that, too. If you want to discuss it, I suggest you take one mystery at the time, and explain how your idea solves it. - In detail, including math, evidence, etc.

Hans

 

[Reality Check]

Bjarne: The stupidity that his delusions only apply to new polar GPS satellites

Monday Morning red Ivan and Sergey, will launch a new polar satellite into the GPS system

12 September 2016 Bjarne: The stupidity that his delusions only apply to new polar GPS satellites!
Bjarne's delusions mean that existing polar GPS satellites cannot work.

 

[Reality Check]

Bjarne: A PDF about satellite anomalies being noticed and actioned

Many satellites encounter anomalous events detrimental to mission...

Satellite Anomalies - Benefits of a Centralized Anomaly Database and Methods for Securely Sharing Information Among Satellite Operators (PDF)
12 September 2016 Bjarne: A PDF about satellite anomalies being noticed and actioned which is nothing to do with his "Have you hear about the many time dilation synchronization every day"

 

[Reality Check]

Bjarne: Reveals ignorance about a PDF that he linked t

So which satellite program is that report about then , if not GPS ?

12 September 2016 Bjarne: Reveals ignorance about a PDF that he linked to !

http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RR500/RR560/RAND_RR560.pdf[/QUOTE] is by the RAND Corporation and is about every satellite that exists.

Satellites in Earth orbit represent a critical component of society’s modern infrastructure. Failure of a satellite, or even of a particular subsystem, can significantly affect capabilities on which the civil, defense, and commercial sectors have come to rely. Most satellite owners monitor the health of their systems and keep track of any unusual problems their spacecraft experience. These “satellite anomalies” are defined, for the purposes of this study, as any mission-degrading events affecting on-orbit operational spacecraft. Examples include onboard computer errors or failures, malfunctioning attitude control systems, loss of radio contact, the degradation of solar panel efficiency, and many other mechanical or electronic symptoms. Most satellites experience anomalies of varying severity throughout their lifetimes. The root causes of these anomalies may include manufacturing and design flaws in satellite hardware and software, extreme space weather events that affect the intensity of electromagnetic radiation and density of charged particles in the satellite’s environment, impacts with micrometeoroids or space debris, operator error, regular wear and tear from exposure to the plasma environment of space, or interference by human technological activities, either intentional or unintentional.

There are 2 occurrences of the word GPS as examples of medium Earth orbit (MEO) satellites.

 

[Reality Check]

Bjarne: The clocks in GPS satellites are not continuously re-synchronized from Earth

Off course GPS clocks are continuously re-synchronized from earth,...

12 September 2016 Bjarne: The clocks in Global Positioning System satellites are not continuously re-synchronized from Earth.
The GPS clocks are set before launch to tick a little slower to account for SR and GR effects. GPS: Special and General Relativity

To compensate for the discrepancy, the frequency standard on board each satellite is given a rate offset prior to launch, making it run slightly slower than the desired frequency on Earth; specifically, at 10.22999999543 MHz instead of 10.23 MHz.[16] Since the atomic clocks on board the GPS satellites are precisely tuned, it makes the system a practical engineering application of the scientific theory of relativity in a real-world environment.[17] Placing atomic clocks on artificial satellites to test Einstein's general theory was proposed by Friedwardt Winterberg in 1955.[18]

There is one case where a GPS clock was "re-synchronized". One of the original GPS satellites (maybe in a polar orbit !) was launched with no rate offset on the clock and the SR/GR effects were measured and agreed with SR and GR. Then this one clock was adjusted once to compensate for the SR/GR effects.

 

[Reality Check]

Bjarne: Spamming a thread with a fantasy does not make it less deluded

If we assume the ISS ....

12 September 2016 Bjarne: Spamming a thread with a fantasy does not make it less deluded - a possible dark flow millions or billions of light years away will have no effects here.

 

[Reality Check]

Bjarne: GPS satellites are in stable orbits well above the Earth's atmosphere

So the main task is to keep clocks synchronized.

No: 12 September 2016 Bjarne: The clocks in Global Positioning System satellites are not continuously re-synchronized from Earth.

There are many significant influences on satellites, here is a article I read today

The GPS operators know about these many significant influences on satellites ! But:
12 September 2016 Bjarne: GPS satellites are in stable orbits well above the Earth's atmosphere.
GPS satellites are not defunct, decommissioned satellites in the process of being deorbited to fall to the Earth. GPS satellites are not in Low Earth Orbit where atmospheric drag is an issue.

A view that is abysmally ignorant about the real world is nothing to boast about, Bjarne.

 

[halleyscomet]

So where was the measured time dilation for ISS and Galileo ?

I was speaking of the GPS correction data and I think you know it.

 

[Reality Check]

I just have to wait for the ISS and Galileo 5 & 6 test i finish, its much easier

Actually it is totally beyond your ability to understand, Bjarne.
You have no idea what the ISS and Galileo 5 & 6 tests are.
You have no idea what the ISS or Galileo 5 & 6 orbits are.
If they show no problems with relativity you will probably claim that there were problems that were hidden. If they differ from relativity then you are incapable of showing that they agree with your RR/dark flow delusions.

For interested parties, Galileo 5 & 6 were accidentally launched into incorrect obits. The orbits were adjusted to make them useful for navigation but are elongated enough for to test the General Theory of Relativity.
Galileo satellites set for year-long Einstein experiment from 5 November 2015 so the experiment may end in November 2016 and be published in 2017.

The experiment is a 4-fold more accurate version of Gravity Probe A

Gravity Probe A confirmed the prediction that gravity slows the flow of time,[3] and the observed effects matched the predicted effects to an accuracy of about 70 parts per million.

and
Galileo satellites set for year-long Einstein experiment

ESA’s forthcoming Atomic Clock Ensemble in Space experiment, planned to fly on the International Space Station in 2017, will go on to test Einstein’s theory down to 2–3 parts per million.

 

[fuelair]

Ah, Bjarne, there is the thing for you! Fiction writing. You seem to have some talent there. All you need now is a plausible plot.

Hans

I have read way too much of his writing to encourage that - there is quite enough bad SF coming from the idiots who tried to rig the Hugos to get them for their nut cases!!!!!!!!

 

[MRC_Hans]

Well, his fiction i better than his science, at least...

Hans

 

[Bjarne]

I'm arguing that whether or not it's "possible," we're not seeing it on GPS, and it should be visible on GPS. .

If a satellite trigger a alarm , the staff will take a look at why it happen, off course, - but if everything is as expected, and nobody know about that theory and measurement doesn't agree, its not sure any alarm will go.

Because the anomaly I expect not a escalating anomaly - this is only the case according to theory, not according to the "measured reality" after clock synchronize first one time is done.
So the measured time dilation will be understood as constant, - except off course influences caused by perturbation etc, .

Yes if someone should worry about the preccesion, the anomaly could easy be discovered, but why should anyone worry something is wrong ?

The point is; - when relativity have been tested 17 times when the first GPS 17 satellites was set in orbit, and everything seems to confirm the theory of relativity, it must be very very strange if satellite number 18 not also should confirm the theory too.

What I mean is, - after a lot of GPS satellites have confirmed relativity, I believe everyone is pretty relaxed, - not many really believe it is necessary to watch for failure in the theory itself.

So even if a very strange anomaly occurs with one or few GPS satellite, and even it seems to be a very unique anomaly, - not seen before, - what will then happen?

If anyone should suggest that such anomaly could be caused by a flaw in special theory of relativity, such a GPS staff member would most likely be considered as either nuts or stupid.

So many will think better don’t suggest such solution.
But even if this option finally could be a possible conclusion, - t I think the politic is to conclude “we don’t know”, - “don’t speak more about this before we know more” , because what happen if this instead was caused by a unknown technical error.
It can easy ruin multibillion business (as we already agree)

Who knows, - maybe unknown causes of anomalies is one of the reasons that ISS is chosen to be a test satellite for time dilation (and now also Galileo 5 & 6) ?’

At least we know, that this report ........
Benefits of a Centralized Anomaly Database and Methods for Securely Sharing Information Among Satellite Operators
http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RR500/RR560/RAND_RR560.pdf

reveals confusion and suggestions how better to solve anomaly problems that clearly not always seems to be an easy task..

If it's wrong, it's not better. If the data doesn't support it, it's wrong.

I am afraid that would be the case, - but so much points to the a simpler world view, will triumph over the old really sick paradigm that rules now.

 

[halleyscomet]

If a satellite trigger a alarm , the staff will take a look at why it happen, off course, - but if everything is as expected, and nobody know about that theory and measurement doesn't agree, its not sure any alarm will go.

Again, you're posting speculative nonsense about a theoretical workflow that would support your hypothesis, despite the fact you've been given links to information on how the scientific community ACTUALLY handles orbital anomalies. You have to LIE about how people do their jobs despite having been given PROOF of how they do their jobs including the DATA ON THE CORRECTIONS. You prefer to lie and accuse people you don't known of grotesque incompetence without evidence in order to keep your dark flow nonsense from vanishing in a puff of logic and data.

Through it all, you can't be bothered to request the actual data and crunch the numbers yourself.

You brag about being lazy and deliberately ignorant of science and math, why do you have to add slandering liar to your list of demonstrable attributes?

 

[Bjarne]

Again, you're posting speculative nonsense about a theoretical workflow that would support your hypothesis, despite the fact you've been given links to information on how the scientific community ACTUALLY handles orbital anomalies. You have to LIE about how people do their jobs despite having been given PROOF of how they do their jobs including the DATA ON THE CORRECTIONS. You prefer to lie and accuse people you don't known of grotesque incompetence without evidence in order to keep your dark flow nonsense from vanishing in a puff of logic and data.

Through it all, you can't be bothered to request the actual data and crunch the numbers yourself.

You brag about being lazy and deliberately ignorant of science and math, why do you have to add slandering liar to your list of demonstrable attributes?

We will see

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

No we won't.

I predict that by the end of 2017 you will either shift goalposts, claim 'they' are hiding the facts from everyone else, or just plain stop posting.

 

[Dancing David]

And why do your calculations not correct for the fact that both the earth and the sun change position relative to your 'dark flow' constantly?

Or do you assume geocentrism?

This has been ignored repeatedly

 

[dasmiller]

<snip of things that have no connection to the way GPS really operates>

If anyone should suggest that such anomaly could be caused by a flaw in special theory of relativity, such a GPS staff member would most likely be considered as either nuts or stupid.

So many will think better don’t suggest such solution.
But even if this option finally could be a possible conclusion, - t I think the politic is to conclude “we don’t know”, - “don’t speak more about this before we know more” , because what happen if this instead was caused by a unknown technical error.
It can easy ruin multibillion business (as we already agree)

Seriously, have you read anything I've written? There are people who've devoted their careers to understanding much smaller discrepancies in the GPS orbits. They speak about them a lot. They publish papers, conduct sessions at GPS conferences, argue with each other and various program managers.

And they argue over the little discrepancies because there are no big discrepancies.

Who knows, - maybe unknown causes of anomalies is one of the reasons that ISS is chosen to be a test satellite for time dilation (and now also Galileo 5 & 6) ?’

THERE ARE NO LARGE REPEATING ANOMALIES IN THE GPS ORBITS. How can we look for the cause of a non-existent effect?

At least we know, that this report ........
Benefits of a Centralized Anomaly Database and Methods for Securely Sharing Information Among Satellite Operators
http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RR500/RR560/RAND_RR560.pdf

reveals confusion and suggestions how better to solve anomaly problems that clearly not always seems to be an easy task..

Fixing hardware and software failures on a machine that's 30,000 km away in an alien environment isn't easy. Quelle surprise. Why would this cause us to question the accuracy of GR/SR?

I am afraid that would be the case, - but so much points to the a simpler world view, will triumph over the old really sick paradigm that rules now.

The measurements do not point to a fundamental flaw in relativity.

 

[halleyscomet]

We will see

The only Dark Flow you're ever going to show anyone is the post digestion alphabet soup you strain to produce your scientific "theories."

Real world technology proves your theory is wrong, and you're too cowardly to confront the evidence. You've proven you'd rather lie and spin than face reality.