The supernatural

[Chanakya]

... The world is moving so it definitely has to have a purpose. ...

heydarian, I'd suggest you visit a psychiatrist and a neurologist, and get the insides of your head tested. Nothing to be ashamed of, but your brain seems to be lacking the basic reasoning faculty that all human beings generally take for granted. This whole thread is evidence of your amazing inability to think straight; and this sentence, that forms the crux of that particular post of yours, kind of brings into focus how crippled is your thought process.

This sounds rude, I know, but I'm not saying this to denigrate you. There's clearly something wrong with you. Not because you believe in the childish fairy tales that is Islam, because God knows there are enough adults that harbor absurd beliefs like that. But your total inability to think straight about anything at all, that doesn't seem very normal, not very healthy.

To fall into this kind of error in reasoning is in itself, again, not that much of a rarity, unfortunately. But to continue to be blind to this, even when people point out things of this sort to you repeatedly, that seems to me indication of a mind that is afflicted, and might benefit from treatment.




eta belatedly:

For instance, where you blithely gloss over where Pixel42, whom you claim to respect and whose words you claim to read carefully, tells you you're indulging in "circular thinking". That phrase means something, as you would know if you had even the most fundamental understanding of logic. That you don't have that foundation is not the problem; the problem is your refusal to update your knowledge base despite so many people taking the time and effort to educate you.

Another example, where so many people are clearly pointing out to you that evolution has no purpose. Forget quantum mechanics and whatnot, do you even understand what the word "science" actually means? There are people here who actually know a thing or two about how evolution works; as well a great many who, while not experts, nevertheless are conversant enough to give you a basic outline. When people tell you there is no purpose to evolution, your response is to unthinkingly parrot your internalized belief system and repeat, ad infinitum, and without any kind of support, the circular argument that everything has a purpose, and so must evolution.

Don't you see that you're just spouting whatever random nonsense that comes into your head, without the slightest support in terms of either evidence or logic? Please stop thinking and talking about science or logic, since you clearly know less about either than a child of five might; or else, if you wish to continue with your otherwise laudable effort to compare your native beliefs with what science has to say, then please take the trouble to read up a bit on what you're talking about here (and that you clearly know nothing at all about). Reading people's posts carefully and sincerely and honestly would be a great place for you to start.




*backs away from thread, promising not to post again in this crazy thread, despite knowing, already, that that promise will likely not be kept, but still*

 

[abaddon]

Hello. Please refer to message 2494 .... By the way, God does not need proof. The existence of the universe and the motion of the universe prove God. And that is enough. And it is easy to understand.
Thanks

Think about what you just said.

God needs no proof. Here is the proof of god.

What kind of stupid idea is that?

 

[IanS]

My religious beliefs, though, were inherited at the beginning of my life. Because my fathers were also Muslims. But after entering the university, my religious thoughts became generally incompatible. Because I saw in the Qur'an itself that it says: Do not accept your thoughts and religion as inherited !! Well, I changed it too. I only sought to prove my religion through extensive scientific and historical research in documented and credible documents. Now my religion is not inherited. I believe in Islam, the Qur'an and God with authentic knowledge and documents. Even now I have no prejudice. If science proves something contrary to God's claim in its book, the Qur'an, I will accept it. But I have not seen it yet. Science is in accordance with God and the Qur'an. No contradiction is observed. If you have something contrary to this claim, let me know. And to answer as much as I can scientifically.

"Proof" is your own word here, so to keep things simple for you, I will continue to talk as you do about what science has "proved" ...you say that if science has "proved" things contrary to the claims in your holy book, then you will "accept it". But (firstly) you are now trying to switch the burden of proof (and that is again dishonest) – you are the person here claiming God exists, so the burden is upon you to prove your claim … I do not have to show you any scientific papers about any God … the burden is entirely with you to prove your God (and to prove any claims yotu make about science in the Quran).

But secondly – the whole point, which I have made to you at least 50 times now (!!), is that there are no scientific papers claiming to have discovered your God or claiming to have discovered “scientific miracles” in your Quran.

I have told you many times now that if there were any such evidence of God, then every scientific paper would be filled with that (and so would every newspaper and every TV news program all over the world!). Because it would be the greatest discovery ever (every scientist on the planet would be publishing such results!) … but in fact there are NO scientific papers claiming to have discovered any evidence at all about your God. None. Zero! …

… out what are now many millions of science research papers describing everything in the entire universe, there is not a single one claiming to have discovered God or discovered “miracles in the Quran”.

The burden of proof here is upon you to explain (a) why out of all those millions of real research papers, not a single one supports your calims about God and the Quran, and (b) for you to prove by any other means that your God exists … these are your claims, and it's you who has to prove it.

OK, so the bottom line is – where are the real science papers claiming God? Please produce them here right now (and stop trying to evade your burden of “proof”). Where are the papers? Show them!

 

[turingtest]

The only way to believe that every process has a "purpose," in the way heydarian is using the word, is to believe that every effect is an aim. But since that belief covers every possible case, it's not falsifiable- therefore not science.

Heydarian, you can believe what you want, but it's just not correct to say that science backs up your belief. You're mouthing the words and aping the forms of science, but you're ignoring its most basic precept- that a hypothesis or theory must be falsifiable. As Pixel42 says, you're assuming what you're trying to prove as your first step in trying to prove it- you're reasoning in circles, which is not how empirical science is done. You can quote from scientific articles until the cows come home, and you still won't have science working for you.

 

[Mojo]

Hello. Please refer to message 2494 .... By the way, God does not need proof. The existence of the universe and the motion of the universe prove God. And that is enough. And it is easy to understand.
Thanks

Think about what you just said.

God needs no proof. Here is the proof of god.

What kind of stupid idea is that?

But the babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn’t it?

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Hello. I answered you in previous messages. pay attention.

I want to be certain I am correct in my assessment of your posts. This is a yes then?

Ok, so you're just flat out wrong. Evolution doesn't have a goal in mind, nor is it working towards anything. Your understanding of science is virtually nil.

 

[Scorpion]

My religious beliefs, though, were inherited at the beginning of my life. Because my fathers were also Muslims. But after entering the university, my religious thoughts became generally incompatible. Because I saw in the Qur'an itself that it says: Do not accept your thoughts and religion as inherited !! Well, I changed it too. I only sought to prove my religion through extensive scientific and historical research in documented and credible documents. Now my religion is not inherited. I believe in Islam, the Qur'an and God with authentic knowledge and documents. Even now I have no prejudice. If science proves something contrary to God's claim in its book, the Qur'an, I will accept it. But I have not seen it yet. Science is in accordance with God and the Qur'an. No contradiction is observed. If you have something contrary to this claim, let me know. And to answer as much as I can scientifically.

You must have missed where the Quran says the heaven and earth were
created in six days.


The quran says that the heaven and earth were created in six days. Muslims claim that the Arabic for word day can mean an
undetermined amount of time. But I suggest this makes no difference, as The bible was written in Aramic, and Hebrew, then translated into Greek and then into English. So it does not matter that the word for Arabic day is obscure, because it is clear that the quran is copying the bible on the matter of the six days of creation, and the bible also says that a day in the sight of God is as a thousand years to us. This means that both the bible and the quran are saying that God created the heaven and earth in six thousand years. As this is obviously not the case, I put it to you that the real source of the creation myth as it appears in the quran is the bible.

We know the universe has existed for around fourteen billion years,
and we have hubble space telescope pictures of the edge of the universe to prove it.
We also know that the age of the earth is around four billion years, so we know that the universe existed for ten billion years before the earth was formed. We also know that the earth is made of atoms that were formed in the first stars, and ejected into space after they exploded. So planets could not even have been created for the first few billion years of the universe, because there were no heavy atoms in existence. So the bible is wrong and the quran exactly repeats this mythology.

Quran, surah 7.54 Lo! your Lord is Allah who created the heavens and the earth in six days.

Quran, surah 10.3 Lo! your Lord is Allah who created the heaven and earth in six days.

Quran, surah 11.7 And He it is. Who created the heavens and the earth in six days.

Quran, surah 25.59 Who created the heaven and earth and all that is between them in six days.

Quran, surah 50.38 And surely We created the heaven and earth, and all that is between them, in six days.

Quran, surah 57.4 He it is Who created the heaven and earth in six days.

Quran, surah 22.47 A day in the sight of the Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning.

Quran, surah 32.4 Allah it is who created the heaven and earth, and that which is between them, in six days. The he mounted the throne. You have not beside him a protecting friend or mediator. Will you not then remember?

Quran, surah 32.5 He directs the ordinance from the heaven unto the earth; then it ascends unto him, in a day whereof the measure is a thousand years of that you reckon.

Here are the bible sources for these texts.

Bible, Genesis 1.31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Bible 2Peter 3.8 But beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is as with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

 

[Scorpion]

My religious beliefs, though, were inherited at the beginning of my life. Because my fathers were also Muslims. But after entering the university, my religious thoughts became generally incompatible. Because I saw in the Qur'an itself that it says: Do not accept your thoughts and religion as inherited !! Well, I changed it too. I only sought to prove my religion through extensive scientific and historical research in documented and credible documents. Now my religion is not inherited. I believe in Islam, the Qur'an and God with authentic knowledge and documents. Even now I have no prejudice. If science proves something contrary to God's claim in its book, the Qur'an, I will accept it. But I have not seen it yet. Science is in accordance with God and the Qur'an. No contradiction is observed. If you have something contrary to this claim, let me know. And to answer as much as I can scientifically.

The quran states the sun has an orbit, at sura 21.33 and 36.40 and 36.38, and I am here to tell you that in spite of what Imams say it means the sun orbits the earth.

Imams say that the quran is a great revelation because the sun has an orbit in the galaxy and Muhammad knew that. I say cobblers. The quran is saying the sun orbits the earth.
For one thing everyone in Muhammad's time thought that, and he lived from 570 to 632 ad

It was not until the time of Copernicus (1473 to 1534 ad) that he wrote a paper showing the sun is the center of the solar system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_revolutionibus_orbium_coelestium

Therefore nobody knew that in the time of Muhammad and neither did he, so I will bet any amount of money that the quran is saying the sun orbits the flat earth in a semi circle.

Thereby proving the quran is not a message from God.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Hello
Just a question from yourself: What are you breathing for? Is it pointless? If so, what is the purpose of your breathing? Why are you doing this? Do you need to breathe to reach your goal? Or not. But the first part of your talk: how much can an illiterate person know about his day-to-day issues 1400 years ago, in the seventh century? There are approximately 6,200 articles in the Qur'an in all fields. Can that illiterate person say it himself? And said that he had no teacher. He was also illiterate so that he could read and understand the Bible or the Torah from the Bible and write the book of the Qur'an. So who wrote the Qur'an? You please answer. I want to hear from you.

What makes you think whoever wrote the Qur'an was illiterate?

Hans

 

[MRC_Hans]

Hello. No. You have overlooked an important point. The world is on the move. Is not that so? Every move must have a purpose.

Why must every move have a purpose?

The world is moving so it definitely has to have a purpose. We must first understand the movement and the necessity of the purpose of the movement, and then go to the stimulus of the movement.

We can show many kinds of movement that have neither system nor purpose. I think you are confusing this with the notion that anything "must" have a cause. This is an old principle, but we have long since found that this needs not be true.

Who created the world? Who moved the world? Again, gravity, density, electromagnetism, or other causes? No.These are just the forces and energies that are needed to keep moving. To understand more about this, you need to go back to Planck and the Planck area. I mean, read the scientific content of these two. To clarify the above claim for you. I am not a scientist.

No, you are obviously not a scientist. You misrepresent most scientific concepts. Nothing wrong in not being a scientist. I know wonderful people who are definitely not scientists. ... The problem comes when you are still trying to teach others science. Please stop that: You are not a scientist, period.

But I have referred to these articles for my words. And I have taken what I need to prove my point. These are all the disabled of one cause. What is the main cause that has no cause? Ask science to answer. The main cause, which has no cause, is God alone.

Cool! You got around to cause. You are pleading the god of the gaps: Whichever thing science cannot currently explain must be God. You have a problem here: Science needs not understand things for them to be true. A hundred years ago, would you claim that, say, electricity is God? .. Because at that time science could not fully explain electricity?

*snip* But ... it should not cause pride and arrogance in any way. I apologize for having to say this important point. Good luck

I think you should instead apologize for your own pride and arrogance. You have no understanding of science, yet you assume to teach us about it. You invent your own interpretations of your holy book and demand we take it as gospel. ... You should be ashamed of yourself. Hans

 

[sackett]

What makes you think whoever wrote the Qur'an was illiterate?

Hans

Tradition has it that Mohammed was illiterate. It's not impossible. I'm inclined to believe that he was, and therefore couldn't keep track of everything he'd said over the 20-odd years he spent on it.

He was supposedly once asked about variant readings that three people had thought they found in the text as compiled by his scribes; this could happen, given the imprecise nature of written Arabic then. He cheerfully declared all 3 readings to correct, exactly as a cornered conman would. When the three readers objected, the Prophet of All o' the Way With Allah palmed them off with a platitude about watching out for Satan in their hearts.

Maybe a few of his goons edged close and helped the three to find the exit from the cave.

 

[heydarian saeed]

I want to be certain I am correct in my assessment of your posts. This is a yes then?

Ok, so you're just flat out wrong. Evolution doesn't have a goal in mind, nor is it working towards anything. Your understanding of science is virtually nil.

Hello. Thank you for your wrong judgment. Rest.

 

[heydarian saeed]

Why must every move have a purpose?



We can show many kinds of movement that have neither system nor purpose.

I think you are confusing this with the notion that anything "must" have a cause. This is an old principle, but we have long since found that this needs not be true.



No, you are obviously not a scientist. You misrepresent most scientific concepts. Nothing wrong in not being a scientist. I know wonderful people who are definitely not scientists. ... The problem comes when you are still trying to teach others science. Please stop that: You are not a scientist, period.



Cool! You got around to cause. You are pleading the god of the gaps: Whichever thing science cannot currently explain must be God. You have a problem here: Science needs not understand things for them to be true. A hundred years ago, would you claim that, say, electricity is God? .. Because at that time science could not fully explain electricity?



I think you should instead apologize for your own pride and arrogance. You have no understanding of science, yet you assume to teach us about it. You invent your own interpretations of your holy book and demand we take it as gospel. ... You should be ashamed of yourself.

Hans

Hello. I'm happy with you. The philosophy of motion is its goal. If you mean movements that have no purpose but are used in an experiment to achieve results. So this move also has a purpose. Maybe you and I do not understand each other properly. And this is the problem between us. So be calm to reach our goal. But ... I'm not trying to teach science to anyone. I learn science from you and my friends. I am writing this for you only to answer your questions and criticisms. And I have to give my answer as far as I understand and know. I do not teach or preach to anyone, especially since I promised dear Pixel42 that I would not preach. I am just explaining the answers to your questions as far as I understand.
The problem for you and others in this group is that I speak for the Qur'an from the science of the day. And I'm discussing science. I have no claims myself. The science of the day is in the Qur'an. So it is the claim of God and the Qur'an, not my claim. I have no claim. I only believe in these scientific facts in the Qur'an. And I love. It is true that the Qur'an has been said with the knowledge of the day. But we do not understand. Should be checked. To see if this claim of God in the Qur'an is scientific or false. I have done a lot of scientific research in the Quran. And I still do not sit. I see the science of the day in the Qur'an. And I love it. My faith is scientific. Not Blind prejudice and hereditary. And my arms are always open to accept logical and scientific words. I love the truth whatever it is. The Qur'an is also the complete truth.

 

[heydarian saeed]

Tradition has it that Mohammed was illiterate. It's not impossible. I'm inclined to believe that he was, and therefore couldn't keep track of everything he'd said over the 20-odd years he spent on it.

He was supposedly once asked about variant readings that three people had thought they found in the text as compiled by his scribes; this could happen, given the imprecise nature of written Arabic then. He cheerfully declared all 3 readings to correct, exactly as a cornered conman would. When the three readers objected, the Prophet of All o' the Way With Allah palmed them off with a platitude about watching out for Satan in their hearts.

Maybe a few of his goons edged close and helped the three to find the exit from the cave.

Hello dear master. I agree with you that Muhammad was illiterate. History also says. Therefore, in no way can he have recited the Qur'an. I do not want to get into the discussion of how revelation came to the Prophet Muhammad. As was sometimes evident from the state of his face, he was under a lot of pressure. I do not have any claims, but I researched according to the specific words that were mentioned in the Qur'an during the revelation to the Prophet. It is clear and provable that the revelation was communicated to the Prophet through purely scientific means. I do not want to waste your precious time. I will say it in just a few words. The revelation reached Muhammad through the wormhole ....
It is said in the Quran ....

 

[heydarian saeed]

What makes you think whoever wrote the Qur'an was illiterate?

Hans

It is said in the Qur'an that Muhammad was illiterate. And has not given any science. In the history of Muhammad, there is a valid document that Muhammad was illiterate. He did not have any teachers. You can even see and read the history of Saudi Arabia and Mecca in the time of Muhammad. Written: In all of Saudi Arabia, less than 10 people were literate. In Mecca, only 3 people were literate. One of them was just a poet and a writer. Both people could read and write .... Read the history of Saudi Arabia in the time of Muhammad. Meanwhile, Muhammad has said many times: I am illiterate. All I say is the message of God that he conveys to me through revelation.
On the other hand, it shows what is said in the Qur'an. One can say that he is fully acquainted with science. Even the science of eloquence and easy lecturing in the Qur'an is so complete. That no one can speak like the Qur'an. These are all reasons for Muhammad's illiteracy. And that only God could have said this book. God has claimed that in the Qur'an, all the people of the earth can be gathered, they can not say even one verse like the Qur'an. Because I have said the Qur'an. Can you refute this claim? !! not at all. No one can.
Not even all the Arabic languages ​​of the world can speak a verse like the Qur'an. This is the claim of God. Until the end of the universe, no one can deny this claim. But .... if you have a credible article or document to claim the Qur'an and Muhammad's illiteracy, bring it so that we can read and examine it.
Thanks

 

[Little 10 Toes]

How do ants speak Hebrew?

 

[malbui]

My faith is scientific. Not Blind prejudice and hereditary. And my arms are always open to accept logical and scientific words. I love the truth whatever it is. The Qur'an is also the complete truth.

Houston, I think I've found the problem.

 

[Scorpion]

It is said in the Qur'an that Muhammad was illiterate. And has not given any science. In the history of Muhammad, there is a valid document that Muhammad was illiterate. He did not have any teachers. You can even see and read the history of Saudi Arabia and Mecca in the time of Muhammad. Written: In all of Saudi Arabia, less than 10 people were literate. In Mecca, only 3 people were literate. One of them was just a poet and a writer. Both people could read and write .... Read the history of Saudi Arabia in the time of Muhammad. Meanwhile, Muhammad has said many times: I am illiterate. All I say is the message of God that he conveys to me through revelation.
On the other hand, it shows what is said in the Qur'an. One can say that he is fully acquainted with science. Even the science of eloquence and easy lecturing in the Qur'an is so complete. That no one can speak like the Qur'an. These are all reasons for Muhammad's illiteracy. And that only God could have said this book. God has claimed that in the Qur'an, all the people of the earth can be gathered, they can not say even one verse like the Qur'an. Because I have said the Qur'an. Can you refute this claim? !! not at all. No one can.
Not even all the Arabic languages ​​of the world can speak a verse like the Qur'an. This is the claim of God. Until the end of the universe, no one can deny this claim. But .... if you have a credible article or document to claim the Qur'an and Muhammad's illiteracy, bring it so that we can read and examine it.
Thanks

I have told you once, and I've told you twice. But you never listen to my advice ! Muhammad had the Torah read to him. There is a hadith where he sends for the Torah, and has the law read out to him.

As for the Quran being so wonderful nobody can write a verse like it, You sound like any other totally brainwashed Muslim groupie. To me the Quran is simplistic trash. I have an excellent library with countless far superior writings from many people from ancient times to the present day.

 

[Chanakya]

...I love the truth whatever it is. The Qur'an is also the complete truth...

Houston, I think I've found the problem.

Bingo!



heydarian, do you understand what is being said here, and would you like to address this?

 

[Scorpion]

It is said in the Qur'an that Muhammad was illiterate. And has not given any science. In the history of Muhammad, there is a valid document that Muhammad was illiterate. He did not have any teachers. You can even see and read the history of Saudi Arabia and Mecca in the time of Muhammad. Written: In all of Saudi Arabia, less than 10 people were literate. In Mecca, only 3 people were literate. One of them was just a poet and a writer. Both people could read and write .... Read the history of Saudi Arabia in the time of Muhammad. Meanwhile, Muhammad has said many times: I am illiterate. All I say is the message of God that he conveys to me through revelation.
On the other hand, it shows what is said in the Qur'an. One can say that he is fully acquainted with science. Even the science of eloquence and easy lecturing in the Qur'an is so complete. That no one can speak like the Qur'an. These are all reasons for Muhammad's illiteracy. And that only God could have said this book. God has claimed that in the Qur'an, all the people of the earth can be gathered, they can not say even one verse like the Qur'an. Because I have said the Qur'an. Can you refute this claim? !! not at all. No one can.Not even all the Arabic languages ​​of the world can speak a verse like the Qur'an. This is the claim of God. Until the end of the universe, no one can deny this claim. But .... if you have a credible article or document to claim the Qur'an and Muhammad's illiteracy, bring it so that we can read and examine it.
Thanks

2.23 And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our
servant, then produce a Surah like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If
there are any) besides God, if your (doubts) are true.

2.24 But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is
men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith.


The quran says above that no one can produce a surah like it. Here is my surah.


Surah 118 Al Baba.

118.1 Praised be to Allah the almighty and most merciful, the lord of the worlds.
118.2 Obey Allah and his messenger, Muhammad, and if you should give all you own, and die in battle for Allah you will be well rewarded.
118.3 You will recline on couches drinking from silver goblets, and be waited on by wide eyed virgins, who have been specially made for you in heaven. (well they may have been fixed by surgery)
118.3 So you will no longer have to hobble Thamud the she camel for your satisfaction as you did on earth.
118.4 Did we not tell you of Ali Baba and the forty thieves, and did we not remind you of Noah, and how we asked him to gather two of every creature, we even saved the pig, but I am damned if we can remember why we mentioned them. Unless it was to poison unbelievers, yes I think that was it.
118.4 And did we not give you the sand to play in, as far as the eye can see, nothing but sand, sand, sand. Allah love sand, no, he really likes making sand. And did we not surround it by the seas which are too salty to drink. Allah is most merciful and wise.
118.5 Did we not tell you to fight the unbelievers wherever you find them, so that you could steal their lands and get out of all that sand. So great and merciful is Allah to the followers of the messenger. Obey the messenger and fight the unbelievers and take their wives and steal their possessions, you can have the wives, but the loot belongs to Allah, (and his messenger Muhammed so hand it over or else) But do not kill unbelievers if they become believers, just sign them up as conscripts, and put them in the front line of the next battle to liberate the lands of more unbelievers. Only kill them if they become believers, then change their minds when they start thinking for themselves ,and asking awkward questions. Then strike their necks.
118.6 Allah will curse the unbelievers to be roasted over a slow burning flame for all eternity, and have their eyes plucked out with hooks. But Allah will give them new eyes, so that they can be plucked out again, because Allah is most wise and great, and he likes to watch. He likes little boys that pick the wings off flies as that amuses him. He is the seer-er of all you do, and even peeps on you when you are in the bathroom.
118.7 Allah be praised and praised, then praised some more.
No really, you had better get down on your heads and grovel, you wretched worms, or you are really going to get it in the head. don't mess with the messenger (Muhammad) if you know what's good for you.