Chanakya
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Don't really want to dilute the focus here away from what this thread's about, but WHAT?!!!
The supernatural
- Thread starter heydarian saeed
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Don't really want to dilute the focus here away from what this thread's about, but WHAT?!!!
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
The idea that fewer religions means fewer religious wars is hard to justify, given how keen followers of slightly different flavours of the same religion have historically been to kill each other. Protestant v Catholic, Sunni v Shia, they seem to hate each other as much, if not more, than they hate the followers of other religions.
Chanakya
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Absolutely!
And in any case, who's to decide which that winner-take-all religion is to be? Heydarian may well respond to this, and not without justification, by pointing out that if all Christians were converted to Islam, whether by argument or at the point of a sword, then that too would result in lesser strife (should we grant Scorpion's implicit premise that fewer religions equals lesser strife).
Like I said, I don't want to derail this thread away, but this line of argument is totally indefensible.
MarkCorrigan
Героям слава!
The Quran is monstrous, just like the Bible.
Thor 2
Philosopher
Go for it Scorpion!
Nothing is sweeter for an atheist like me than seeing theists, of different colours, at each others throats - figuratively speaking, as I would not get pleasure in seeing bloodshed. There has been too much of that already.
Go for it Scorpion!
Nothing is sweeter for an atheist like me than seeing theists, of different colours, at each others throats - figuratively speaking, as I would not get pleasure in seeing bloodshed. There has been too much of that already.
I think it's unfortunate that the same term "theism" is used to describe both Scorpion's belief in an ambient consciousness that underlies reality but never communicates with humans, and Heydarian's belief in an unquestionable source of the dictates of a particular prophet. Of course technically they both fit the definition of theism, but they're in direct contradiction to one another, not in mere details (such as the name of the deity or which are the truer scriptures) but in the entire import of the narrative. The idea that Scorpion and Heydarian are merely "of different colors" is just as much of an understatement as for instance if Heydarian were to call Scorpion and atheists mere "different colors" of his opponents who after all all agree that no gods communicate with humans.
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
To be fair, I did PM Scorpion to recommend that while he was doing a stand out job dismantling Heydarians wild claims, he would be best served by not chucking his own claims into the mix.
And he has restrained, fair play to him.
He obviously knows his onions when it comes to the koran and hadith. I have read them myself, but they were so forgetable that I couldn't quote them.
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Thor 2
Philosopher
Well said!
Kudos to Scorpion for his restraint although he did say this: "I am certain God had nothing to do with the Quran, or the bible either."
We have seen Scorpion describe in some detail his own "beliefs" in other places and he has been flayed for these by many others. Some of the stuff about children's need to suffer is nausea inducing.
I think a theist is a theist is a theist if he ... she ... it speaks from text created by some external force, or conjures it up in their own head. Regardless of Myriad's straw splitting.
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
Thanks, I guess, but the cred belongs to Scorpion, not me.Well said!
He has his own threads to discuss whatever he belives. Do I expect perfection? Nope. I just ladled out some friendly advice. That is all.
Sure. But those have threads of their own. We can discuss those in their respective threads. We have threads for that. My point here in this thread is that Scorpion has an almost encyclopedic knowledge of islam, koran, hadith and whatnot. I have read the lot and I could not dredge up the citations he does.
Hard to say. I didn't set out to somehow "teach" my kids to be atheists. They got there all of their lonesome. I find myself saying "You did a who in the what now?" so often that it has become a goto phrase. They astonish me all the time. And it is fantastic.
heydarian saeed
Graduate Poster
Hello to all dear friends
Given that Scorpion created a conference in this group so that anyone can bring a verse like the Quran. I do not try to challenge them. I just recommend that you keep the following in mind:
1- The Qur'an has been revealed in Arabic. Therefore, in order to bring a verse like the Qur'an, you must definitely speak in Arabic. So work in this area. In other words, it is not acceptable at all.
Because it is just a translation into another language. The Qur'an says, "Bring a verse just like me, if you are right." So be careful. Do not try in vain. Your only attempt is to bring a verse like the Qur'an itself.
Like these two verses from the Qur'an: Sura 53 verse 1 - وَالنَّجْمِ إِذَا هَوَى Translate: I swear to the star when it is destroyed. (Black holes in space)
Sura 56 verse 75 - فَلَا أُقْسِمُ بِمَوَاقِعِ النُّجُومِ Translate: I swear by the birth of the stars. (White holes in space)
2- Scorpion wrote poems for us here, thinking that the verse of the Qur'an says so. These are just English translations for the Qur'an. I have told you an up-to-date and completely scientific translation and interpretation of the Qur'an according to modern science in this group in English.
Scientific translation and interpretation, according to what I have said, has not yet been said anywhere in the world. If you know anything about this, let us see. And reject my claim.
3- I suggest you: Get help from all the Arabic language scholars who are completely fluent in Arabic to recite a verse like the Quran in Arabic. If you could bring it to see. I am waiting.
4- The Qur'an itself answers you in two verses for your attempt to bring a verse like it. Read carefully so that your efforts are not in vain: Sura 2 verses 23 and 24
And if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to Our servant (Muhammad), then if you are truthful, bring a surah (even a verse) like it, and call on your witnesses and helpers other than God to help you.
So if you did not do this and you can never do it. From the fire that fuel people and stones. And it is prepared for the disbelievers, So stay away.
Good luck to all of you. Waiting
Given that Scorpion created a conference in this group so that anyone can bring a verse like the Quran. I do not try to challenge them. I just recommend that you keep the following in mind:
1- The Qur'an has been revealed in Arabic. Therefore, in order to bring a verse like the Qur'an, you must definitely speak in Arabic. So work in this area. In other words, it is not acceptable at all.
Because it is just a translation into another language. The Qur'an says, "Bring a verse just like me, if you are right." So be careful. Do not try in vain. Your only attempt is to bring a verse like the Qur'an itself.
Like these two verses from the Qur'an: Sura 53 verse 1 - وَالنَّجْمِ إِذَا هَوَى Translate: I swear to the star when it is destroyed. (Black holes in space)
Sura 56 verse 75 - فَلَا أُقْسِمُ بِمَوَاقِعِ النُّجُومِ Translate: I swear by the birth of the stars. (White holes in space)
2- Scorpion wrote poems for us here, thinking that the verse of the Qur'an says so. These are just English translations for the Qur'an. I have told you an up-to-date and completely scientific translation and interpretation of the Qur'an according to modern science in this group in English.
Scientific translation and interpretation, according to what I have said, has not yet been said anywhere in the world. If you know anything about this, let us see. And reject my claim.
3- I suggest you: Get help from all the Arabic language scholars who are completely fluent in Arabic to recite a verse like the Quran in Arabic. If you could bring it to see. I am waiting.
4- The Qur'an itself answers you in two verses for your attempt to bring a verse like it. Read carefully so that your efforts are not in vain: Sura 2 verses 23 and 24
And if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to Our servant (Muhammad), then if you are truthful, bring a surah (even a verse) like it, and call on your witnesses and helpers other than God to help you.
So if you did not do this and you can never do it. From the fire that fuel people and stones. And it is prepared for the disbelievers, So stay away.
Good luck to all of you. Waiting
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heydarian saeed
Graduate Poster
Hello. Yes. My first post was to ask you for help. Let me give you an article to prove the supernatural. And Pixel guided me. honestly. And ... I did not say that I want to prove it to you in the laboratory. By the way, after finishing my article in the next posts, I told you that the supernatural is not in the realm of our understanding and science. In the Qur'an, he does not deal with the subject of the supernatural at all. Therefore, research on it is excluded. If you think about my work: In fact, I did something to remove the topic of supernatural discussion and proof from your forum. And has no answer. In fact, I helped you a lot in this regard. I am the main winner of the $ 1 million prize of your association. Think well. I already have ideas to answer many of the problems of religious people by quoting the Qur'an.
To breathe easy from the superstitious religious objections. I am a great help to your community. I can give the answer to superstitious religions by quoting the Qur'an, which is acceptable to them. I am a great help to your community of infidels. Think well. The answer to your Superstitious religious problems is with the Qur'an. And I know ....
heydarian saeed
Graduate Poster
Hello. Maybe. But it only devours the fanatics ... Are you a fanatic? So wait ...
Cosmic Yak
Philosopher
Mojo
Mostly harmless
No, you said that you had already done the research in a laboratory:
That was a lie, wasn’t it?
Another blatant porkie.
Nope.
You’re trying to combat superstition with lies and more superstition.
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abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
we are not your friends, nor ever have been. Because you casually lie and we all know it.
Gibberish snipped.
Nope. Scorpion wrote quite eloquently. And you are unable to match it. Thus you have no choice but to further reveal how little education you have. I may not agree with Scorpion on many things, but when he is right, he is right.
And here we go with this tired claim. We all have to read it in the original Arabic, right? Yet here you are handing us english translations. How does that work?
Nope. You made a bunch of crap up and lied to us from the outset. Do you not remember your opening post?
And rejecting my claim is utter bollocks. You have no evidence scientific or otherwise.
But you are not waiting. If you were waiting why would you still be posting this garbage?
Why should I care about such superstitious nonsense? Tuatha De Danann were around among my people long before your child molester. Your prophet Mo would have been strung up in short order. It's a cultural thing. Pedos do not go to court, they get quietly dead. A few slip through the cracks. But you have a double problem. Islam want's you dead as well as a heretic. That has to be a bucket of fun.
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Lukraak_Sisser
Philosopher
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That is not the ringing endorsement you think it is.
A true message from god would be peerless regardless of what language it is translated into.
Then again, a true religion would not need to be enforced by law and threats of retaliation, nor would it seek to prohibit discussion or attempts at conversion, as it would be so self-evidently true none would ever renounce their faith one way or the other.
Yet all Islamic states use force of law and threats of violence to keep people to their faith.
Mojo
Mostly harmless
It doesn’t say “black holes in space” or “white holes in space”, though, does it? Those are just phrases you’ve added to the translation.
Incidentally, black holes are not “holes in space”, so the language you are trying to shoehorn into the Quran is another abject failure on your part.
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
It is kind of amusing though if one goes back to post 1. Heydarian just lied in post 1, and then continued on lying. Lest anyone forget, what actually was post 1? anyone recall at this point? It was this...
He has no lab, did no research, proved nothing, posted a lame poll and claims victory. Since that stupid claim, all anyone can get is wild claims from a magic book.
WTF? shall we do with that nonsense idea.
This has now turned into outright lying and dishonesty from a poster who says he will never stop doing it and will spam this forum with masses of it for ever.
Firstly, on the claim that we must all speak fluent Arabic before we have any right to reject his claims of scientific revelation in the Quran - if heydarian is going to try playing that language/race card, then any of us here might just as well dismiss everything he ever says by telling him that modern science published in the English language shows conclusively that there are no such scientific descriptions in the Quran, and that heydarian needs to be a fluent native speaker of English before he can understand why his beliefs about his holy book have been proved wrong.
But secondly - heydarian is repeatedly, and always, using translations claimed by the I'jazz fundamentalists, to claim that various perfectly ordinary words and sentences mean something revealed by science, but he's doing that when all other translations prior to this idea of "Ijazz revelation" had the words and sentences with entirely ordinary meaning and not with any such scientific content. For example heydarian specifically makes the claim for Sura 53 verse 1, but if you look at the link below then you find the usual translation of that verse is as follows -
https://www.al-islam.org/enlighteni...n-vol-17/surah-al-najm-chapter-53-verses-1-32
1. By the star when it goes down.
And in the above linked article, it explains that the above sentence about a "Star" is linked to the next sentence which translates as -
2. Indeed, your companion [Prophet Muhammad (S)] has neither gone astray nor has erred
So what do sentences 1 and 2 actually mean? What are they referring to? Well, frankly, anyone could make-up numerous claims about what such vague metaphorical-type sentences might ever have meant, but according to that above link, here is a full account of what can be said about those two verses -
1. By the star when it goes down.
2. Indeed, your companion [Prophet Muhammad (S)] has neither gone astray nor has erred.
The Chapter opens with the word najm "star" by which God Almighty swears
("By the star when it goes down").
Exegetes provide many a view regarding the contextual meaning of the word. Some maintain that it makes a reference to the Holy Qur’an since such connotation is consistent with the following blessed Verses regarding Divine Revelation.
They hold that the expression alludes to the Arab's practice of terming as star what develops in time at different intervals.
Since the Holy Qur’an was revealed to the Noble Prophet (S) in a period of twenty three years at different intervals, it is referred to as 'star' and the expression:
"when it goes down" makes a reference to its Revelation to the pure heart of the Messenger of Allah (S). However, some other exegetes maintain that it alludes to a star like Pleiades or Jupiter since they are of particular significance.
Some also hold that: "the star" refers to meteors through which devils are repelled from the heaven and Arabs term such meteors as najm.
However, no evident argument has been provided for any of the four interpretations, but the blessed Verse, as far as the application of the word, "the star" requires, serves as an oath to all the stars reflecting Divine Manifestations of God Almighty, the great mysteries of the world of creation, and the extraordinarily great creatures created by Allah. Swearing by the great creatures of the world of creation like the sun and the moon are attested elsewhere in the Holy Qur’an.
The ascent of the stars are more remarkable, but the emphasis laid on their "going down" is owing to the fact that their descent bears witness to their temporal contingence (huduth) and the negation of star worshippers beliefs.
Thus, God Almighty alludes to both the ascent and descent of stars, since such allusion substantiates their temporal contingence and their being checked by the laws of creation.
It is worthy of note that the inner, rather than the outer, meaning of the Verse as attested in traditions, is taken by some exegetes to allude to the Noble Prophet (S) and accordingly, "going down" refers to his descent from the heaven on the night of Ascent.
Now, let us turn toward the reason lying behind the oath.
The blessed second Verse thus expounds that your companion, Prophet Muhammad (S) has never gone astray nor has he been in error,
("Indeed, your companion [Prophet Muhammad (S)] has neither gone astray nor has erred").
He always treads the Path of Truth and the slightest error may not be found in his words and deeds.
The word:
"companion" (sahib)
may indicate that what he says is out of his compassion and love for you.
Many an exegete draw no distinction between the Arabic past tense forms dhalla and ghawa ("go astray; be in error") but regard the twain as laying emphasis on each other. However, some exegetes maintain that there is a difference between the twain such that the former connotes that one may never find the right path toward one's destination but the latter connotes that one proceeds on a path but his path happens not to be straight and free from error.
The former is like "disbelief" and the latter resembles committing sins and transgressing the bounds. It is worthy of note that in his Mufradat under gh-y-y, Raghib says that the latter signifies "ignorance accompanied by corrupt belief."
Thus, dhalala designates absolute ignorance but ghawaya signifies ignorance accompanied by false belief. However, in this blessed Verse, God Almighty intends to negate any form of error and ignorance from His Messenger (S) thereby repudiating the false accusations ascribed to him by his enemies.
In the above I have highlighted some of the interpretation to show that all sorts of meaning have been ascribed to verses such as this. But one interpretation that is not given outside of the Ijazz fundamentalists like heydarain, is that the verse says anything whatsoever about any "Black Holes" ... and nothing remotely like "black holes" is actually said in any of the words of those verses.
So what heydarian has been doing here, is simply outright repeatedly “lying for God” in order to preach his extreme Islamic beliefs (just like fundamentalist Christians such as the presuppositionilists do). The whole thing is just one massive spam of religious extreme preaching.
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
Let me guess, two weeks?Hello. Maybe. But it only devours the fanatics ... Are you a fanatic? So wait ...
Have a question, where does my name come from?
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