The Stimulus Seems to have failed

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DG, as I already pointed out, you need to look at who controlled Congress and the events taking place at the time, rather than just look at who was President, if you want a clear picture.

But then those posts just went in one ear and out the other, didn't they?
 
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39759042/ns/business/

The Obama administration is crediting its anti-recession stimulus plan with creating up to 50,000 jobs on dozens of wind farms, even though many of those wind farms were built before the stimulus money began to flow or even before President Barack Obama was inaugurated.

Out of 70 major wind farms that received the $4.4 billion in federal energy grants through the stimulus program, public records show that 11, which received a total of $600 million, erected their wind towers during the Bush administration. And a total of 19 wind farms, which received $1.3 billion, were built before any of the stimulus money was distributed.

… snip …

The Investigative Reporting Workshop at American University fact-checked that claim, using the federal government's own documents. Not only were 19 of the wind farms already in place before the first stimulus payments were made, but 14 of them were already sending electricity to the grid.

… snip …

Since it gave out its first grants on Sept. 1, 2009, the renewable energy stimulus program has handed out more than $5 billion to more than 1,100 projects, many of them small solar-energy projects. The largest amount of money, $4.4 billion, has gone to big wind farms.

The Investigative Reporting Workshop previously reported that the majority of the money was going to foreign-owned developers, and that the majority of turbines being installed were built by foreign-owned manufacturers.

Guess the liars in the Obama administration just can't help themselves. :D
 
I would make the same post in that case. I cry foul against the stupid argument. If you wish to accuse me of being dishonest, you should have evidence to support it.

Did I accuse you of anything? I don't really know you at all. You may be one of those people who criticize both parties equally.

Do you think the Stimulus has succeeded?
 
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http://townhall.com/columnists/Jona...ls_rush_in_where_europe_rushes_out/page/full/

Fools Rush in Where Europe Rushes Out

As of this writing, France is paralyzed. By the time you read this, it might be in flames.

In Britain, where politics is more polite but the problems are perhaps just as dire, the government is proposing budget cuts on a scale not seen for nearly a century.

In Greece, well, the less said about Greece the better.

All of these countries -- and many more -- are going through painful retrenchments because they spent too much money, made too many promises and expected too little from their own citizens. The era of European austerity is upon us, because the Europeans -- or at least those in charge -- understand the mess they've made of their economies.

… snip …

As far as I am aware, no one has asked President Obama a simple question: If your philosophy is so great, how come the countries that have embraced it for generations are so much poorer than us?

Nor have they asked: If guaranteed health care for everyone will make us so much more "competitive," how come we've been doing so much better than our "competitors" who already have socialized medicine, high tax rates and lavish pensions?

Nor has the president been queried about the incongruity of saying his policies have laid a "new foundation" for economic growth and job creation when the countries he's trying to emulate are trying to dismantle the very same foundations in order to survive.

:D
 
BeAChooser, why do you keep posting random text from blogs? Some of these posts have barely any connection to the thread's subject, and almost none of them follow up previous discussion. It's like you're not really trying to discuss anything here, but rather that you are simply trying as hard as you can to sell a particular point of view. You will answer people only when you think you have a response that sounds good, otherwise you ignore points and try to divert discussion to another area.

Honest discussions of politics are great, but you're not doing that. Why are you selling so hard?
 
Did I accuse you of anything?
yes.

DC is only democrats?
Wow. Who knew.
Some of you are not being honest. If this were a Republican President and Republican controlled Congress, you would be crying foul.

Remind me again which Whitehouse economist predicted the passage of the Stimulus would result in the worst stretch of unemployment since the Great Depression?

Crickets.

Do you think the Stimulus has succeeded?
Not as much as it should have. But then, I'm not one to think in binary terms.
WHat I wonder is what aspects of the recovery did we think failed?
was it the tax breaks, the grants, or the entitlements?
 
Can you be a little more specific? Which specific posts do you object to? And seeing as you haven't taken any interest in this thread so far, what do you care?

Be more specific? See, there you go, being combatative. I'm sure you know very well what I am referring to, but to you this discussion is a game that is played to win. However, I will play along and be more specific. Here are the specific posts I object to, and why I object to them:

#1207: You post a quote from an article, then respond with your own thoughts. This post barely relates to this thread, as far as I can tell.

#1204: "Remember Obama promising this? Looks like he lied." This at least relates to the topic of the thread, stimulus, but it's not in response to anyone in particular.

#1202: You link to an article in MSNBC, and then comment on it.

#1182 & 1181: Same as above.

Those are the first 5 examples I found by searching backwards. Here is my problem... these posts aren't in reply to anyone. They aren't constructive to discussion. It's like with your rapid fire articles you are trying to sell something as hard as you can.

So my question to you is why? Why are you selling so hard? This is an honest question for you, and not a criticism of you or your political beliefs. There's nothing wrong with being a small government guy and favoring tax cuts over stimulus programs, I think there's still lots of intelligent debate to be had on the subject, but I just don't think that idea salesmanship isn't necessary.

What's your background, BAC? You are obviously a small govt guy, how did you come to believe that? Are you some sort of activist, what else do you do in your spare time to fight for this cause besides posting on message boards? I'm curious.

And also, why the constant smiley faces? Aren't you aware that this hinders your goal of salesmanship by making you look annoying, and making your opponents look more rational? If your true goal is to convince people, the smiley faces are a bad move.
 
Can you be a little more specific? Which specific posts do you object to? And seeing as you haven't taken any interest in this thread so far, what do you care?

The thread is filled with specific objections. Your choice to ignore those is rather obvious.
 
And seeing as you haven't taken any interest in this thread so far, what do you care?

Just remembered that I wanted to respond to this too. I've actually followed this entire thread, hard to believe right? I find this topic pretty interesting, but as the thread has dragged on I became more interested in your salesmanship technique.
 
Here are the specific posts I object to, and why I object to them:

#1207: You post a quote from an article, then respond with your own thoughts. This post barely relates to this thread, as far as I can tell.

Then you really haven't paid attention to this thread. The issue being discussed from post #1 on is whether the socialist approach to fixing recessions and preventing depressions advocated and employed by Obama and democrat leaders has worked … or can work. And despite all the evidence that has been presented to the contrary, there are still JREF posters arguing the Stimulus worked and that Obama is "the Man". So the fact that so many democratic socialist countries (that is the model that Obama and his friends seem to be advocating) are now abandoning that approach is entirely relevant to this thread and perhaps will be the fact that finally wakes these people from the spell Obama and democrats have cast on them.

#1204: "Remember Obama promising this? Looks like he lied." This at least relates to the topic of the thread, stimulus, but it's not in response to anyone in particular.

Why must this be a response to anyone in particular? It's simply more evidence that the Stimulus failed (in part because it was premised on lies). Evidence that the Obama supporting side of this debate choses to ignore. Call it another nail in the coffin, if you'd like. And this is a thread collecting such nails. A one stop shopping thread for the failure of Obama's economic proposals.

#1202: You link to an article in MSNBC, and then comment on it.

Again, this directly pertains to the topic of the thread so why do you object? It's more evidence that the Stimulus not only failed, but that the Obama administration is STILL actively lying in order to make people believe the stimulus did not fail. Don't you think facts like that should be added to a thread like this? And if not, why not?

#1182 & 1181: Same as above.

... snip ...

Here is my problem... these posts aren't in reply to anyone.

Again, why must they be replies to anyone? I'm trying to inform folks like (perhaps) you because I think some people are only paying attention to the mainstream media which continues to try and sell Obama's lies about the stimulus. They can't be informed if all they hear is disinformation. Obama sold the stimulus with specific promises that such and such would happen. And they didn't, as this thread has shown. He is still trying to sell more stimulus type spending with claims that government can do it better than private industry. And posts like these prove that claim is baseless too … in fact, it's a lie.

Now if this makes you uncomfortable I'm sorry, but sooner or later folks who swallowed the Obama Koolaid need to wake and smell the roses. They've been had by Obama and it's going to be uncomfortable acknowledging that, but for the good of the country, they need need to take this medicine in the spirit it is being offered.

And I'm sorry you don't like my smiley faces. :D
 
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/debt-has-increased-5-trillion-speaker-pe

When Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) gave her inaugural address as speaker of the House in 2007, she vowed there would be “no new deficit spending.” Since that day, the national debt has increased by $5 trillion, according to the U.S. Treasury Department.

"After years of historic deficits, this 110th Congress will commit itself to a higher standard: Pay as you go, no new deficit spending,” Pelosi said in her speech from the speaker’s podium. “Our new America will provide unlimited opportunity for future generations, not burden them with mountains of debt."

… snip …

Pelosi, the 60th speaker of the U.S. House of Representatives, has added more to the national debt than the first 57 House speakers combined.

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/81407-pelosi-bets-the-house-on-success-of-stimulus

Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) has issued 260 statements on the stimulus package over the past year in an effort to win a debate that could be the key to retaining the Democrats’ majority in the House.

... snip ...

Pelosi spokesman Nadeam Elshami said: “The Recovery Act has pulled America back from the brink of economic disaster and has helped create or save about 2 million jobs while providing a tax cut to 95 percent of Americans … Even Republicans, who continue to publicly oppose the Recovery Act while in Washington, proclaim its success in their congressional districts.”

Pelosi is one of those democrats you readers need to see as the liar she is, if you want to recover from Stimulusmania. :D
 
Why must this be a response to anyone in particular? It's simply more evidence that the Stimulus failed (in part because it was premised on lies). Evidence that the Obama supporting side of this debate choses to ignore. Call it another nail in the coffin, if you'd like. And this is a thread collecting such nails. A one stop shopping thread for the failure of Obama's economic proposals.

That's your way of putting it... "a thread for collecting such nails." To me, that sounds like you're basically admitting that you are a salesman for your point of view. To my mind, this is a thread for discussing an idea, not for selling one. Which is not to say that you shouldn't argue passionately for what you believe is the truth, but you should also do so fairly, and respect the other side.

People other than you in this thread have made good points... for you to not acknowledge that is dishonest. That's why you shouldn't be an idea salesman, it prevents you from actually taking part in an honest discussion.

Don't you think facts like that should be added to a thread like this? And if not, why not?

Only if they follow the thread of discussion. You have posted many "facts" that have been disputed, but you let these disputes linger and continue to post more "facts." This is what I object to. You are spamming articles as if you are some kind of idea lawyer trying to prove a case.

You are going about this all the wrong way. Spamming articles only makes you look silly, and no one takes you seriously. The smiley faces make things worse. Try a different technique... if you feel that there is a particular fact that is damaging to the opposite point of view, bring it up. Press people with it until you get a satisfactory answer. If the answers aren't satisfactory, keep pressing.

I will even suggest a topic for you... earlier in the thread there was a point where people were discussing the history of Keynes policies and how well they've worked. You actually brought up a lot of interesting points, but then unfortunately you diverted yourself by bringing up lots of other articles and everyone else got distracted away. You shot yourself in the foot. Why don't you go back and correct that mistake? In fact, I would like to see a new topic called something like "The history of Keynes policies" in which you give people you're little history lesson, and then people can respond, and you both dissect historical evidence in depth.

I think that would be very interesting, and productive. It would certainly be much more productive than this thread which has ballooned to such an unruly size because you spin your wheels too much.

And I'm sorry you don't like my smiley faces. :D

Dude, there's nothing wrong with smiley faces if used in the correct context. If you're telling me that you love your dog, then :D is appropriate. If you're trying to sell the idea that socialism is bad and stimulus plans don't work, then :D makes no sense. Therefore it's both amusing and annoying to people. Is your intention on this forum to amuse and annoy? Or did you actually want to be taken seriously?
 
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Pelosi is one of those democrats you readers need to see as the liar she is, if you want to recover from Stimulusmania. :D

There you go again, attempting to divert the discussion by spamming another random article. Stop spamming, please. Who do you think you are selling to? Do you think this is some sort of game where the more articles you post, the more "points" you score? It's the opposite, my friend. You win more points by making honest arguments and being focused, not by spamming.

I sincerely hope that this latest article spam is ignored by everyone.
 
There you go again, attempting to divert the discussion by spamming another random article. Stop spamming, please. Who do you think you are selling to? Do you think this is some sort of game where the more articles you post, the more "points" you score? It's the opposite, my friend. You win more points by making honest arguments and being focused, not by spamming.

I sincerely hope that this latest article spam is ignored by everyone.

Argumentum ad verbosium (sic) is a much beloved fallacy.
 

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