The Stalin-led massacre of Holodomor

[jimbob]

There is no doubt that Stalin was excellent at torturing, terrorising, and oporessing his people, one of the very best, in fact, but to me, there is something about the nazi killing machine (not least in what it might have led to, but bad enough to outdo others while it lasted) that seems like evil on a mythological scale; evil as a logistic problem, industrial evil - modern, cold, calculated, rather than the older kind of feudal ruler evil. Impersonal and efficient, rather than personal and capricious. Something about that scares me more.

They both were industrial and evil. But I get your point.

 

[jeremyp]

As a point of correction, the so-called Rive Gauche (Left Bank) writers - Maddox Ford, Hemingway, Rhys, Bowen., et al - travelled about Europe freely. It was quite normal for the rich and adventurous to traipse the world without passport control or documents, albeit mostly pre-WWI but also, even in the '30's.

My comment about allegiance in war was a quip to highlight the fact the idea of 'Country', 'Emperor' and 'King/Queen' depends on history, when pre-borders, as we know them today, one fought on behalf of the King, not Country, and this chap would be whoever won the last battle for your tribe (which could be a bunch of second generation Danes who brought in Danelaw for your side of England). The ancient idea of the monarchy being hereditary was challenged in both Britain and Sweden (post-Danish rule) as a result of nobles rebelling against tyrannical kings (Charles, Erik) which is when parliamentary sovereignty over the monarch became established. So, indeed, there is a certain restraint on tyrants we have that the USSR, Japan and the Third Reich did not have.

What would be unusual about Stalin and his Holodomor is that it would be a Slav on Slav genocide, which is why it is often framed as an attack on the collective class of Kolkhoz rather than a genocide proper, as was the case of Hitler in his genocide of Jews, Slavs, Roma, er al.

In respect of your comment about personal identity, I have friends with Portuguese last names and other than the ones who are Brazilian or Portuguese proper, or by marriage, whilst their families have been born in Britain and have been in Britain generation after generation, ask them how they identify and they will say 'Sephardic', despite their ancestors having been thrown out of Portugal more than four hundred years ago!

Nobody in our family would ever use that term. We are English and British. I'm not Portuguese or sephardic, I am English

NB my name id also popular in parts of the subcontinent that were Portuguese colonies.

You don't know what you are talking about.

 

[ponderingturtle]

There is no doubt that Stalin was excellent at torturing, terrorising, and oporessing his people, one of the very best, in fact, but to me, there is something about the nazi killing machine (not least in what it might have led to, but bad enough to outdo others while it lasted) that seems like evil on a mythological scale; evil as a logistic problem, industrial evil - modern, cold, calculated, rather than the older kind of feudal ruler evil. Impersonal and efficient, rather than personal and capricious. Something about that scares me more.

Baa, Rwanda beat the Nazis at deaths per day by a large degree, but no one cares I guess as the victims were black. The thing is that only the holocaust is ever taught and then through a very jews only lens. There is far more evil around than you want to think.

 

[jeremyp]

Baa, Rwanda beat the Nazis at deaths per day by a large degree, but no one cares I guess as the victims were black. The thing is that only the holocaust is ever taught and then through a very jews only lens. There is far more evil around than you want to think.

Personally, I'd rather we didn't do all this "my genocide was worse than yours" crap, but if we are...

The Rwandan genocide lasted only a few months. Hitler's genocide(s) lasted for years and were industrial in scale. The Rwandan genocide isn't remembered as well or taught in Western Europe because the focus in Western Europe tends to be on the history of Western Europe (shock!)

There are many genocides and acts of brutality at the population scale that most people are unaware of. You should look up what happened in the Belgian Congo in the late 19th century and it was mostly done in the name of profit, not ideology.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Personally, I'd rather we didn't do all this "my genocide was worse than yours" crap, but if we are...

The Rwandan genocide lasted only a few months. Hitler's genocide(s) lasted for years and were industrial in scale. The Rwandan genocide isn't remembered as well or taught in Western Europe because the focus in Western Europe tends to be on the history of Western Europe (shock!)

The problem I have is that the holocaust is treated as some unique thing not just one of many. Hence why "Never Again" is really only about the jews not a general statement against genocide.

And people should respect the Rwandan genocide it is the John Henry of genocides as opposed to the holocaust which was the steam drill.

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

According to our brownshirts, you can never bevome a Swede, unless you already are one. I don't know how that works, since it must mean that there are no Swedes. It's very complicated. I expect it's the same in the UK. But then said shirts tend to approve of the monarchy, so maybe royals become Swedish/English much faster?

But trees at christmas? I have never heard anything so outlandish!

I believe the process involves doing something unnatural to turnips.

And no, I don't mean adding a bit of pepper when you mash them.

 

[ahhell]

Generally agree with Pondering Turtle. The slogan, "never again" has largely been just that, a slogan. The list of holocaust like events since WWII is.. lengthy. Camobodia, I guess doesn't count because they all look alike? Sudan and S. Sudan, same. To be fair, for the most part the world is faster to intervene than they did prior to WWII. Did in Rwanda in a lot less time than in WWII and the hadn't even invaded Poland yet.

We shouldn't forget the Japanese in this either. Everyone talks about the Holocaust and at most add the Japanese were pretty bad too.

That being said, moderately surprised someone hadn't heard about the Holodomor.

 

[ahhell]

Personally, I'd rather we didn't do all this "my genocide was worse than yours" crap, but if we are...

The Rwandan genocide lasted only a few months. Hitler's genocide(s) lasted for years and were industrial in scale. The Rwandan genocide isn't remembered as well or taught in Western Europe because the focus in Western Europe tends to be on the history of Western Europe (shock!)

There are many genocides and acts of brutality at the population scale that most people are unaware of. You should look up what happened in the Belgian Congo in the late 19th century and it was mostly done in the name of profit, not ideology.

I'll point out that in the US world history tends to end at about 1970 so there is that too. People complain that we white wash history in the US, that's mostly just the result of how poorly history it is taught. World history: Greece, Rome, other places, middle ages (weren't they awful but not as awful as we used to believe), Columbus, stuff, WWII, ◊◊◊◊ were out of time. US history: Columbus, there were natives, there still are some, 7 years war, revolution, slavery (wasn't that awful), civil war, WWII, Vietnam, ◊◊◊◊ were out of time.

If you have a really good teacher, they might mention WWI.

ETA: We tend to repeat that twice too. Why not take two years instead the same thing twice, I don't know. I guess they figure middle schools are incapable of coordinating with high schools.

 

[Vixen]

An interesting video here re the Siege of Leningrad, including a recounting how a few biologist scientists guarded with their lives, precious species of grain rather than eat them to survive, in his Reddit link, below (I suspect, a little hyperbolic in true Russian-style.)

"The Siege of Leningrad was not a battle, it was a calculated death sentence handed to three million civilians by a regime that chose starvation as a weapon of war. For 872 days, Hitler's Army Group North drew an iron ring around the city, cutting off every supply route and waiting for Leningrad to simply cease to exist." (Blurb)

https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryAnecdotes/s/JxovFSA926

 

[Andy_Ross]

it didn't cut off every supply route, Supplies and troops crossed the river all through the battle.

It also debunks many of the myths surrounding Stalingrad.

For the most detailed and thorough look at Stalingrad I recommend Tik History's Battlestorm Stalingrad series.
It gives complete day by day account.

BATTLESTORM STALINGRAD Series [Complete Documentary]

The complete BATTLESTORM STALINGRAD series is an in-depth history documentary that covers the FULL Battle of Stalingrad from the 21st of July 1942 to the 2nd...

youtube.com

 

[Vixen]

Here's an interesting article about those two Russian botanists who strove to preserve their species of plants in the 'world's first seed bank' during the 1941 - 43 siege by the Third Reich:

Since Abram Kameraz had begun to commute by train from Leningrad (now St Petersburg) to the suburban town of Pavlovsk earlier in the summer of 1941, attacks by enemy planes had become a frequent cause of delay. Through the carriage window, Kameraz saw the road was littered with bodies. These men, women and children had been killed by German planes which had strafed and bombed the crowds of refugees as they fled towards the city. As Kameraz caught the silhouette of a German Stuka cresting the horizon, the driver stopped the train and ordered the passengers to run to a nearby ditch for cover.

Kameraz, 36, was a potato specialist, one of about 50 botanists who worked at the Plant Institute, the world’s first seed bank, situated off St Isaac’s Square in the centre of Leningrad. The institute’s potato collection contained 6,000 varieties, including many rare cultivars – the largest, most diverse potato collection yet gathered in history, a crop of inestimable scientific importance. And right now, hundreds of delicate South American specimens were planted in sheds in the fields on the outskirts of the city, in the path of the advancing German army. GUARDIAN

All pretty horrific:

On 25 December, as news of an increased ration spread through the city, Ivanov went to check on Shchukin, whom he had not seen for several hours. He opened the door and found Shchukin seated motionless in his desk chair. Ivanov ran to his friend and shook his shoulders. But Shchukin’s body was already stiffened and cold, one hand locked in place on his chest. As Ivanov attempted to loosen Shchukin’s arms, a packet of almonds fell on to the desk. The botanist had died while clutching specimens that, had he eaten them, could have saved his life.

 

[dudalb]

There is no doubt that Stalin was excellent at torturing, terrorising, and oporessing his people, one of the very best, in fact, but to me, there is something about the nazi killing machine (not least in what it might have led to, but bad enough to outdo others while it lasted) that seems like evil on a mythological scale; evil as a logistic problem, industrial evil - modern, cold, calculated, rather than the older kind of feudal ruler evil. Impersonal and efficient, rather than personal and capricious. Something about that scares me more.

I think you can say the same about the mass slaughters by both Stalin and Mao.
Sorry, sound to me like just anothe attempt to somehow prove that left wing Mass murderes are somehow not as evil as right wing mass murderere. IMHO this is ideologically based BS.

An interesting video here re the Siege of Leningrad, including a recounting how a few biologist scientists guarded with their lives, precious species of grain rather than eat them to survive, in his Reddit link, below (I suspect, a little hyperbolic in true Russian-style.)

"The Siege of Leningrad was not a battle, it was a calculated death sentence handed to three million civilians by a regime that chose starvation as a weapon of war. For 872 days, Hitler's Army Group North drew an iron ring around the city, cutting off every supply route and waiting for Leningrad to simply cease to exist." (Blurb)

https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryAnecdotes/s/JxovFSA926

Starvation has been a standard weapon in Siege Warfare since ancient times. This does not make Hitler any less evil.

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

it didn't cut off every supply route, Supplies and troops crossed the river all through the battle.

It also debunks many of the myths surrounding Stalingrad.

For the most detailed and thorough look at Stalingrad I recommend Tik History's Battlestorm Stalingrad series.
It gives complete day by day account.

BATTLESTORM STALINGRAD Series [Complete Documentary]

The complete BATTLESTORM STALINGRAD series is an in-depth history documentary that covers the FULL Battle of Stalingrad from the 21st of July 1942 to the 2nd...

youtube.com

Wouldn't touch that youtube channel with a bargepole. Poster's about as good a historian as David Irvine and for the exact same reasons.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Wouldn't touch that youtube channel with a bargepole. Poster's about as good a historian as David Irvine and for the exact same reasons.

Bollocks.

His ideas on economics are strange but he's no nazi sympathiser or apologist

 

[jeremyp]

it didn't cut off every supply route, Supplies and troops crossed the river all through the battle.

It also debunks many of the myths surrounding Stalingrad.

For the most detailed and thorough look at Stalingrad I recommend Tik History's Battlestorm Stalingrad series.
It gives complete day by day account.

BATTLESTORM STALINGRAD Series [Complete Documentary]

The complete BATTLESTORM STALINGRAD series is an in-depth history documentary that covers the FULL Battle of Stalingrad from the 21st of July 1942 to the 2nd...

youtube.com

Slightly confused about this. It looks like you are responding to this post

An interesting video here re the Siege of Leningrad, including a recounting how a few biologist scientists guarded with their lives, precious species of grain rather than eat them to survive, in his Reddit link, below (I suspect, a little hyperbolic in true Russian-style.)

"The Siege of Leningrad was not a battle, it was a calculated death sentence handed to three million civilians by a regime that chose starvation as a weapon of war. For 872 days, Hitler's Army Group North drew an iron ring around the city, cutting off every supply route and waiting for Leningrad to simply cease to exist." (Blurb)

https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryAnecdotes/s/JxovFSA926

Especially as you repeat the quote "cutting off every supply route".

Vixen's post was talking about the siege of Leningrad (now St Petersburg). You seemed to be talking about Stalingrad (now Volgograd).

 

[Andy_Ross]

Slightly confused about this. It looks like you are responding to this post



Especially as you repeat the quote "cutting off every supply route".

Vixen's post was talking about the siege of Leningrad (now St Petersburg). You seemed to be talking about Stalingrad (now Volgograd).

Yes, didn't notice that. I thought it was about Stalingrad which we were talking about at the time.

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

Bollocks.

His ideas on economics are strange but he's no nazi sympathiser or apologist

He absolutely is.

 

[Andy_Ross]

He absolutely is.

Bollocks

Try watching some of his videos.




"The "Aryans" didn't like my video refuting National Socialism's ideology, and this was one of the responses..."