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The Socratic Method is a hoax

Yes, exactly. Unless you're selling the item. You tell someone the SM is effective, worth their time and effort, you're lying to them, hoaxing them, defrauding them (figuratively). You tell yourself it's effective, worth your time and effort, you're defrauding yourself.

That's my claim. It remains my claim regardless of what language you use, and regardless if you struggle to manage literal versus figurative usage. Taxonomical or definitional objections don't really touch the essence of my claim.

Maybe it's time to draft my monograph on the worthlessness of appeal to dictionary in a debate between peers.
Is there a name for a method in which one agrees with someone but does so in such terms the someone feels like they're being browbeaten and insulted? I'm not certain you need to quibble about how people speak with you, eventually they'll just stop entirely.
 
Maybe it's time to draft my monograph on the worthlessness of appeal to dictionary in a debate between peers.
It's not worthless. You only say that because you are wrong. A dictionary isn't the ultimate authority on what words mean, but it does provide a standard that documents their usage. Without a consensus on what words mean they are useless. Trying to win an argument by using a definition that nobody else does is both dishonest and lazy.
 
What function are you wanting the Socratic Method to perform? Perhaps we should be more explicit about that. Who claimed that it performs that function? Was it Plato or Socrates, or one of their later fanboys? Please quote the original source of your suggestion that it is supposed to serve a particular function before refuting vague claims that haven't even been properly identified.

Otherwise, we don't even know who you're arguing with, which risks tilting at windmills (straw man).


And yes, I can take a position on Socrates if you'd like. Historically speaking, it was an answer to solipsism, which basically said that you can't know anything and thus rhetoric is all that there is to work with. Thus, you should practice rhetoric rather than trying to know anything. The Socratic Method is anti-rhetoric. It exposes the shortcuts and asks the speaker to be more precise, more explicit. It's not a way to argue with people using only questions. It was a way to decline to take a position while sorting out the logic of the one making the argument.

So... it's not just another rhetorical device. It's explicitly anti-rhetoric. It's a way to expose the logic (or lack thereof), not a way to convince anybody of anything.

Based on what I gleaned from an admittedly rather negligent skim of the OP, I suspect that you're trying say that using a screwdriver to hammer in a nail is rather silly. I agree, but that isn't what screwdrivers were ever designed for, and neither did anyone suggest otherwise.
 
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Wow! I think highly of the Socratic method.

It depends on how one approaches an argument. If it's your right and they're wrong. Then no, it doesn't work it all. But if done in a collegiale manner, it is the equivalent of peer review.

I try and tear my own arguments down and appreciate when others make the attempt.
 
Wow! I think highly of the Socratic method.

It depends on how one approaches an argument. If it's your right and they're wrong. Then no, it doesn't work it all. But if done in a collegiale manner, it is the equivalent of peer review.

I try and tear my own arguments down and appreciate when others make the attempt.
I think the Socratic method is most useful when it's least needed. If you're engaged in a relatively cordial debate with a person who is reasonable and a subject that is not rubbing on someone's nerves, it can, I think, be a way of clarifying one's thoughts, and as much of tuning one's own arguments as of winning them. Maybe once upon a time when philosophers were milling about the agora trying to figure out what the world was made of it worked. On important and ideological matters, it's more likely to end up with turtles all the way down.
 
I think the Socratic method is most useful when it's least needed. If you're engaged in a relatively cordial debate with a person who is reasonable and a subject that is not rubbing on someone's nerves, it can, I think, be a way of clarifying one's thoughts, and as much of tuning one's own arguments as of winning them. Maybe once upon a time when philosophers were milling about the agora trying to figure out what the world was made of it worked. On important and ideological matters, it's more likely to end up with turtles all the way down.
I don't think it's a matter of one upon a time. But otherwise, yes.
 
Wow! I think highly of the Socratic method.

It depends on how one approaches an argument. If it's your right and they're wrong. Then no, it doesn't work it all. But if done in a collegiale manner, it is the equivalent of peer review.

I try and tear my own arguments down and appreciate when others make the attempt.
Arguments can be torn down by methods other than leading questions in a necessarily condescending manner, by someone who pretends to be superior to the person they're questioning.

The usual, healthy process among peers is for each side to make their arguments and their rebuttals, and then let everyone make up their own minds about who is right and who isn't. Premise, reasoning, conclusion. That's how peers make their case to each other.

Also, I think you're wrong about the Socratic Method being equivalent to peer review. My understanding of peer review is that it almost never involves a condescending question-and-answer session designed to prove the claimant wrong. Rather, it seems to me that peer review typically consists of examining and rebutting the claim itself, regardless of whether the claimant participates or is even aware of the review.
 
I don't think it's a matter of one upon a time. But otherwise, yes.
Likely so, but I think Socrates himself spent a lot of his philosophical time arguing with sophists, whose main characteristic was theoretical, logical or pseudo-logical rhetorical argument. In that world, I imagine the logical "gotcha" element of Socratic argument could work pretty well.

e.t.a. I get the mention of the condescending attitude, but given that the accounts of Socrates come second-hand from Plato, who might well have had more of an axe to grind, I'd be cautious on calling it out.
 
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Likely so, but I think Socrates himself spent a lot of his philosophical time arguing with sophists, whose main characteristic was theoretical, logical or pseudo-logical rhetorical argument. In that world, I imagine the logical "gotcha" element of Socratic argument could work pretty well.
The Socrates of the method is a fictional character in hypothetical scenarios authored by Plato, scripted to "prove" certain rhetorical points. It's completely unknown whether the real Socrates customarily argued in this manner, or whether it ever worked out according to plan.
 
The Socrates of the method is a fictional character in hypothetical scenarios authored by Plato, scripted to "prove" certain rhetorical points. It's completely unknown whether the real Socrates customarily argued in this manner, or whether it ever worked out according to plan.
Yes, much of what is written about him is fictional, though we can be fairly sure he did exist. I'm only guessing, based on some long-ago reading of Plato and of the sophists Socrates is said to have argued with, that a clever person would not have too hard a time finding the flaws in their theories and flummoxing them. It's likely enough, though, that Plato conflated stories and neatened them up, if not actually making them up, for his own purposes. But the world is complicated and chaotic, so it's not really all that hard to find a contradiction or a fault when someone tries to reduce it all to a grand over-arching theory, which is something philosophy tries so often to do.

I think the core doctrine of the Socratic method is kind of bogus anyway. Sure, you can manipulate and direct a person into re-thinking things, and making connections of which they were not aware, and thus reaching conclusions that were not obvious at first. As I recall, the Socratic twist was that this indicated that people actually know the truth but don't know they know. What you do know and what you should know are two different things, even if a clever person steers you into a position where they start looking the same.
 

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