Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

[lobosrul5]

It was a simple statement of fact. Your leaving do is when you clear your desk.

Not always, in my actual personal experience. But again, what difference does it make??

 

[Reformed Offlian]

It was a simple statement of fact. Your leaving do is when you clear your desk.

Simple statement, yes. Fact, no.

Carl Bildt didn't clear his desk on September 28.

 

[erwinl]

So what? Lots of people have farewell parties before the last day on the job, or after. People have Christmas parties in January, too. Doesn't mean that's when Christmas happens. I'm sure he had lots of farewell parties/events.

I was stunned by that statement of Vixen as well. Up to that point I had actually accepted her statement, that it was Bildt’s last day in office.
Now it turns out, all that time, she had been straight up lying about this.

 

[erwinl]

Not an expert in submarines.



No it isn't. I showed the errors in your professor's assumptions, but you don't have the brains to understand them. And yes, I'm smarter than your professor.

I’m not smarter than a professor, or you for that matter, but even I saw the holes in his statements.

 

[Vixen]

Take it from me, a ghost hunter. BS is not documentary evidence. Sad but true, this.



And her experience with submarines is what? Does she have any maritime knowledge? How many ship accidents had this person worked?



What if I told you it was eels? They may have mistaken the Estonia for a hovercraft.

Definitely equally as credible as this "professor" and his 3D model. See, the problem is there is not a long list of submarine collisions with commercial shipping for anyone's data to be "consistent" with a submarine collision. And we've covered this line of crap before. There were zero reports of a submarine putting into port for emergency drydock time. No navy can hide that sort of thing.

The submarine thing is one of the more pathetic BS stories you'd deposited in these threads
.


Weird, almost as if he consulted with naval authorities, who pointed out that Ro-Ro ferries have a history of this kind of thing. And then heard reports from survivors who used the open bow ramp to climb down into the sea. Like the man had the capacity to put 2+2 together to reach a conclusion.

And you ignore the fact that Sweden had spent ten years complaining about foreign submarines sneaking around their coastline before this. The fact they didn't blame a sub for this one should tell you all you need to know.




The guy who climbed down the open boat ramp, and the engineer who fled his post when he saw the car deck flooding on his TV monitors. When you complain that the survivors were not properly questioned you can't turn around and ignore the survivor's statements when they undermine your weak points.

Margus Kurm is a 'he' not a 'she'. Of course submarines can traverse the Baltic.

 

[Vixen]

So what? Lots of people have farewell parties before the last day on the job, or after. People have Christmas parties in January, too. Doesn't mean that's when Christmas happens. I'm sure he had lots of farewell parties/events.

Rosenbad is the official Swedish government building = the White House or Westminster. It was where Bildt's office was, together with civil servants. This was the official leaving do.

 

[Vixen]

I was stunned by that statement of Vixen as well. Up to that point I had actually accepted her statement, that it was Bildt’s last day in office.
Now it turns out, all that time, she had been straight up lying about this.

It was his last day. He had no more powers to enact laws after that. He was just 'acting' PM until Carlsson was sworn in.

 

[JesseCuster]

Wasn't it supposed to be a Russian sub that sank the Estonia as revenge for nicking old radios?

At one point it was Russian commandos, loyal to Estonia and angry at the Swedes for stealing their radios. So they boarded the ship, took control of the bridge, shot the captain and planted demolition charges before slipping in to the night on a mini submarine.

Why?

Well, think about it...

And then she's talking about Pepe Silvia.

 

[JesseCuster]

When asked many moons ago about why a submarine would be escorting the Estonia, the best answer Vixen could give was (this is a paraphrase) "for whatever reasons submarines escort ships".

If asked now she will attempt to give an answer that goes like "well, think about, you're Carl Bildt, CIA asset in the Swedish government, and you're using civilian ferries to escort top secret technology, wouldn't you involve your navy...." and she then starts writing bad spy fiction, completely unaware that she is engaging in spinning very tall tales.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Diesel Electric subs are a very bad choice for escorting anything.

 

[Vixen]

When asked many moons ago about why a submarine would be escorting the Estonia, the best answer Vixen could give was (this is a paraphrase) "for whatever reasons submarines escort ships".

If asked now she will attempt to give an answer that goes like "well, think about, you're Carl Bildt, CIA asset in the Swedish government, and you're using civilian ferries to escort top secret technology, wouldn't you involve your navy...." and she then starts writing bad spy fiction, completely unaware that she is engaging in spinning very tall tales.

Not my theory. Firstly, Margus Kurm, Estonia State Prosecutor (who will have seen reams of documents about the incident):

Considering that the hole’s center is beneath the waterline and that none of the survivors reported seeing an above water vessel, it is very likely that MS Estonia collided with a submarine. However, when it comes to this theory, people tend to imagine a submarine ramming the ferry at a 90-degree angle. That might not have been the case. It is far more likely that the vessels were moving in the same direction and bumped into each other. It is also possible that it was MS Estonia that brushed the submarine and not the other way around. The question that really matters is what was a submarine doing on MS Estonia’s route in the first place?
What was it doing there?
Here we have two versions. The first is that there were Swedish military drills taking place in the region. It was possible to observe helicopters in the middle of a naval operation from the decks of civilian ships that night. That is one version. The other is that the submarine was guarding MS Estonia because it had some kind of sensitive cargo. Personally, I tend to hold the latter version more likely. I cannot believe that a coverup of this magnitude would have been ordered had it simply been a navigational error.
Are we talking about a Swedish submarine?
Yes, quite probably.

https://news.postimees.ee/7073877/head-of-expert-committee-coverup-without-end

Secondly, there was the Norwegian professor in the documentary 'This Changes Everything'.

However, I am flattered that you credit me with the theory.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

We have documentary evidence:







It is not just state prosecutor Margus Kurm who thinks the hole may have been caused by a submarine, a Norwegain Professor said the computer modelled 3-D reconsttuction of the hole was consistent with a submarine assuming speeds



The Defence Forces Chief, Eml Svensson had already formulated the cause of the disaster by the very next morning:



ibid



So there you are, within a few hours that was the story of how the accident happened and that is the story the JAIC had to provide as a conclusion.



It's almost as if he had an eye witness.

So you have documentary evidence but not of when Bildt was told, and nor of who told him. So can we have a bit less of you pretending to know that he was told suspiciously early and that he was told by the security services please?

I also note that your evidence does not say Bildt knew the cause of the sinking suspiciously early either. It rather looks like a whole lot of nothing.

How you get from their speculating about the alternatives to claiming they chose a conclusion they would order the investigation to agree with looks like completely unsupported madness to me.

 

[JesseCuster]

Not my theory. Firstly, Margus Kurm, Estonia State Prosecutor (who will have seen reams of documents about the incident):

I never said it was your theory.

However, I am flattered that you credit me with the theory.

I never credited you with the theory.

You display an astonishing lack of basic reading comprehension for someone so boastful of their smarts.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Of course submarines can traverse the Baltic.

And of course that is not the point in contention, as the smart people understood.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

It was his last day. He had no more powers to enact laws after that. He was just 'acting' PM until Carlsson was sworn in.

Was there perhaps a special ceremony at the party to remove his powers? A cake with a letter of dismissal hidden in it? Or are you just blustering?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I am flattered that you credit me with the theory.

A theory which is distinctive in one regard: it is holed above the waterline and sinks anyway.

You remember this, right? The hole in Estonia's side is above the waterline. You do remember this, right? Or do you have a special ability to forget inconvenient facts?

 

[JayUtah]

I wouldn't go down the 'smart' road if I were you.

And why not?

First, the notion that professors know more than everyone else is codswallop. I'm licensed in the discipline he's merely dabbling in.

Second, I gave a very thorough discussion of what he got wrong, which also included the misleading presentation Evertsson gave him to get him started. You tried to address it, but couldn't. And now, since it happened more than 30 seconds ago (that's 30″, by the way), my rebuttal has completely left your head. We've gone over all your claims many times before, but none of it ever makes a dent in your presentation or seems to persist in your memory. You're ineducable.

Third, your attempt to engage my discussion is how we found out just how abjectly ignorant you are of physics and the other knowledge disciplines required to know whether any of your claims have merit. You claimed "twelve years" of education in physics, which turned out to be just one of several lies you have told about your background. And when I say "abject ignorance," that's not hyperbole. You stumble over basic concepts such as points and lines. No wonder you weren't able to understand why your source is wrong.

So yes, when it comes to the ignorant stultiloquence you peddle in the field I've practiced for 30 years, and the shady sources from which you obtain it, I will play the smart card every time.

 

[Mojo]

It was his last day. He had no more powers to enact laws after that. He was just 'acting' PM until Carlsson was sworn in.

He didn't have the power to enact laws before that, it lies with the Riksdag.

 

[Andy_Ross]

A theory which is distinctive in one regard: it is holed above the waterline and sinks anyway.

You remember this, right? The hole in Estonia's side is above the waterline. You do remember this, right? Or do you have a special ability to forget inconvenient facts?

It was obviously a bouncing bomb
There wasn't a sub, it was an aircraft.
The RAF had the 'Highball' bombs in WW2, developed to attack German battleships and Cruisers. By the time they were ready all the targets had been sunk by other means.
They must have kept them somewhere.
All that was needed was a Mosquito and a brave pilot.

Although one would probably have gone right through a ferry without exploding. They were designed to penetrate armour before going bang.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

They stuck one of those through the side of poor old HMS Malaya in testing, I seem to remember. Missed the main armour belt.
Luckily it wasn't full of stolen and smuggled top secret soviet tech. That would have been annoying.