Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

[Mojo]

Vixen further stipulated that Aftonbladet does not maintain an archive.

I'm not sure that it maintains an English edition either.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Now that "QED" has appeared in the thread I'm eagerly awaiting "arrantly"

 

[junkshop]

The source is clearly marked: Sven-Anders Eriksson, Aftonbladet 28.9.1994.

I know you weren't directly responding to me, but **** it. Close enough...

No.

I asked where you sourced these images. I did not ask anything about the content of the images.

You did not author these images. I, and (as I understand it) the MA, require you to credit the author of content you post here that is not your own work.

Please do so.

ETA: Some other posters may have identified the source of your images. I acknowledge and admire their toned buttocks detective skills.

I do not know where you found these images, nor shall I make any attempt to find out, beyond asking you to divulge your source. You posted them, it is on you to defend them against dismissal as unevidenced/made-up bollocks (which is my default position until and unless you show some reason to reconsider).

I look forward to you ignoring me some more,

Junkshop xx

 

[Andy_Ross]

I sure wish I could find an authoritative source. But it sure seems like the 406F released upon immersion on its own, but didn't not automatically activate, like the 406AF.

Now why would anyone even bother with a beacon that will only release and float on its own, but not activate? It took me perhaps 3 seconds to reason this out. Because an activated buoy still needs to be on the surface to send a radio beacon any useful distance. If a ships in distress, a crewman needs to activate it. But they don't then need to worry about removing it and putting on a lifeboat etc.

Why weren't all of them always immersion activated? Probably needs some sophisticated, by 1994 standards, electronics for that. It can't just be activated by a splash of water or there would be false alarms all the time.

At the time automatic beacons were few in number and more expensive.

There are two ways of holding them, one is a simple bracket that allows the buoy to lift or float out of the top, the other is an enclosure that protects the buoy from water but had to open to release it. This is the type used with immersion activated buoys. You need to protect them from rain and spray otherwise they will activate. If you are using an enclosure with an immersion activated buoy it has to be one with a hydrostatic release.

At the time of the sinking the manufacturer made only one enclosed holder and it had a hydrostatic release, it was used for all models of their buoys.
When this came up the first time I spent a lot of time tracking down information on the model range and other fittings.

Immersion activation is a last resort, it should not be relied on, a buoy can get caught up on a sinking ship and not reach the surface or it may fail to release.

Best practice is to use manual activation and throw the buoy in to the sea or take it aboard a liferaft.

 

[Vixen]

We know exactly what model they were

They were manual activation only

If your expert says they were turned off he's confirming manual only activation. There's no way to turn the immersion sensor off.

Obviously not true.

 

[Mojo]

Obviously not true.

Why is it "obviously not true"?

 

[Vixen]

At the time automatic beacons were few in number and more expensive.

There are two ways of holding them, one is a simple bracket that allows the buoy to lift or float out of the top, the other is an enclosure that protects the buoy from water but had to open to release it. This is the type used with immersion activated buoys. You need to protect them from rain and spray otherwise they will activate. If you are using an enclosure with an immersion activated buoy it has to be one with a hydrostatic release.

At the time of the sinking the manufacturer made only one enclosed holder and it had a hydrostatic release, it was used for all models of their buoys.
When this came up the first time I spent a lot of time tracking down information on the model range and other fittings.

Immersion activation is a last resort, it should not be relied on, a buoy can get caught up on a sinking ship and not reach the surface or it may fail to release.

Best practice is to use manual activation and throw the buoy in to the sea or take it aboard a liferaft.

From the expert who presented to the JAIC and is a marine and navy communications supplier (as of the time of the accident and beyond).

On 27 January 1995, navigation expert Asser Koivisto presented in Helsinki his investigation of Estonia's EPIRB buoys: radio buoys on the command bridge which, in floating mode, are supposed to start transmitting a precise GPS position and trigger an international high alert.

According to Koivisto, the emergency buoys were tested and serviced in Stockholm a week before the disaster, but the crew had forgotten to put the buoys in the on position again. Buoys are usually turned off during land transport, to avoid false major alarms.

<snip>

The emergency traffic did not work very well on the night of the accident. There was poor audibility due to an interfering radio transmitter nearby.

<snip>

Working EPIRB buoys could have contributed to more people surviving. The rescue ships had dared to keep a higher speed and arrived faster at the scene of the accident. The lifeguards [buoys] could previously have been given a clear position.

https://svenska.yle.fi/a/7-1440209




'Expense' wouldn't be a problem for a Swedish passenger ferry as they have been running them for years.

 

[jimbob]

There are a lot of recent rule 12 violations in this thread

Try to separate the poster from the argument

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: jimbob

 

[Vixen]

Why is it "obviously not true"?

"Buoys are usually turned off during land transport, to avoid false major alarms." - Asser Koivisto, Maritime Communications Expert adviser to the JAIC 1995.

Of course you have to be able to turn them off otherwise, if when testing, how do you stop a signal from going out. You have to be able to suppress the signal before it activates a rescue effort. They should only go off when released by the HRU device, which doesn't trigger until immersed or manually, if desired.

 

[Mojo]

"Buoys are usually turned off during land transport, to avoid false major alarms." - Asser Koivisto, Maritime Communications Expert adviser to the JAIC 1995.

Of course you have to be able to turn them off otherwise, if when testing, how do you stop a signal from going out. You have to be able to suppress the signal before it activates a rescue effort. They should only go off when released by the HRU device, which doesn't trigger until immersed or manually, if desired.

If they're manual, like the 406F, they also need to be turned off whenever there isn't an emergency, otherwise they would cause perpetual false alarms.

 

[Andy_Ross]

From the expert who presented to the JAIC and is a marine and navy communications supplier (as of the time of the accident and beyond).

https://svenska.yle.fi/a/7-1440209



'Expense' wouldn't be a problem for a Swedish passenger ferry as they have been running them for years.

Then he's incompetent or telling lies.

There is only one switch on any buoy, it applies to both immersion and manual only activation.
That switch activates the transmission manually. Activation by immersion on buoys with the capability can not be turned off by any switch.

Expense is always a concern for shipping lines.

 

[Andy_Ross]

"Buoys are usually turned off during land transport, to avoid false major alarms." - Asser Koivisto, Maritime Communications Expert adviser to the JAIC 1995.

Of course you have to be able to turn them off otherwise, if when testing, how do you stop a signal from going out. You have to be able to suppress the signal before it activates a rescue effort. They should only go off when released by the HRU device, which doesn't trigger until immersed or manually, if desired.

There's no way to deactivate the immersion sensor. You avoid activation by not immersing them in water

The manual activation switch is obviously off when they aren't transmitting, it does not have any effect on the immersion sensor.

Another deliberate lie from you

 

[Andy_Ross]

If they're manual, like the 406F, they also need to be turned off whenever there isn't an emergency, otherwise they would cause perpetual false alarms.

Stop adding to the bollocks she is posting.

There's only one switch, there's no way of deactivation for the immersion sensor.

 

[zooterkin]

There's no way to deactivate the immersion sensor. You avoid activation by not immersing them in water

The manual activation switch is obviously off when they aren't transmitting, it does not have any effect on the immersion sensor.

Another deliberate lie from you

Surely if it's manual, like the 406F, there is no immersion sensor?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

From the expert who presented to the JAIC and is a marine and navy communications supplier (as of the time of the accident and beyond).

https://svenska.yle.fi/a/7-1440209

This is the same attribution of sources error which haunts this thread. No, the expert is not the author of that. That was written by a newspaper journalist, seemingly confused by the expert's presentation.

If an expert had written it, it would have made sense.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Surely if it's manual, like the 406F, there is no immersion sensor?

Of course there isn't but Vixen is saying there's an extra switch to somehow deactivate the buoy for transport that was in the off position on the Estonia's buoys.

It seems she's getting it from a supposed ',expert' who is saying the same thing.

 

[Vixen]

This is the same attribution of sources error which haunts this thread. No, the expert is not the author of that. That was written by a newspaper journalist, seemingly confused by the expert's presentation.

If an expert had written it, it would have made sense.

You can see the direct quote here from the guy himself.

https://svenska.yle.fi/a/7-1440209

 

[Vixen]

Then he's incompetent or telling lies.

There is only one switch on any buoy, it applies to both immersion and manual only activation.
That switch activates the transmission manually. Activation by immersion on buoys with the capability can not be turned off by any switch.

Expense is always a concern for shipping lines.

He is neither incompetent (he is one of the highest taxpayers in this region = he knows his own industry) nor a liar. Finns aren't liars. They don't worry about saving your face.

 

[Vixen]

Of course there isn't but Vixen is saying there's an extra switch to somehow deactivate the buoy for transport that was in the off position on the Estonia's buoys.

It seems she's getting it from a supposed ',expert' who is saying the same thing.

You have to set the thing in the bracket with the HRU. The devices have to be checked regularly, and accordingly, the buoys on the Estonia had been checked by the ship's electricians/radiographers the week before. This entails lifting the thing out of the bracket to ensure a light is going off to indicate signal due to be sent and replacing it before the signal is sent. Of course there is an off-switch, as Mr. Koivisto says, they are switched off when docked on land for any long period. These passenger ferries go backwards and forwards several times a week. Sweden and Finland are seafaring nations. Sweden was the European superpower in C17 thanks to its navy.

 

[Andy_Ross]

You have to set the thing in the bracket with the HRU. The devices have to be checked regularly, and accordingly, the buoys on the Estonia had been checked by the ship's electricians/radiographers the week before. This entails lifting the thing out of the bracket to ensure a light is going off to indicate signal due to be sent and replacing it before the signal is sent. Of course there is an off-switch, as Mr. Koivisto says, they are switched off when docked on land for any long period. These passenger ferries go backwards and forwards several times a week. Sweden and Finland are seafaring nations. Sweden was the European superpower in C17 thanks to its navy.

You made all that up

They are not activated by lifting them from a bracket.

To test the buoy you either turn it on with the manual activation switch and see if the LEDs light up correctly, or on some models press a battery test button. Those without the test button have a 30 second delay after activation before they start to transmit, this to allow them to be turned on for testing without sending a distress signal.

There's no other way to turn them off. There's no other switch for storage. They have a fixed life before they are returned to the manufacturer for a battery swap.

There's no need for any other storage switch as they aren't using any power unless activated.

Not only have I read the regulations for construction and use, I have read the manual and service instructions for the model used on the Estonia and I own one myself (well, half own it with my brother)