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The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-Opened

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Vixen said:
If this was sabotage, then it is likely tp have been a war between rival intelligence agencies and their defence forces, given how efficiently the boat sank within half an hour or so; the Channel 16 May Day communications channel cut off and continuous signal interference and the entire phone network down for the duration, then we can expect it to show military and naval finesse, so why not weapons available at their fingertips, including mines.
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And what has that to do with the history of the Baltic sea being heavily mined in the past and the existence of past conflict in the Baltic?

Vixen said:
IMV it shows a great deal of ignorance ... not knowing that the Baltic is heavily mined and one of the deadliest seas in history in terms of warfare and bitter conflicts over sovereignty of its waters or even of torpedoes
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I can't relate this to speculation that a minisub sailed up to the Estonia attached a mine to the ship which caused it to sink.
 
phiwum said:
Citation?
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Andi Meister's book 'the Unfinished Log Book'. Andi Meister was the Head of the JAIC, leading Sweden, Finland and Estonia.

In summary this would explain the three bodies as found by the divers, viz.

1) close to the door leading out to the aft on port side, across the door leading to the inside stairway.
2) inside the chart room without further details.
3) in the starboard wing below the broken loose flagbox.

The above is revealed from the voice communication between two divers and the supervisors on board the SEMI 1 according to video tapes B40c and B40d which are available and from the Finnish report of the JAIC, page 131. In addition, more information about the bodies became publicly known partly through the Andi Meister book "The Unfinished Logbook" and partly through the Estonian media. These are:

- the body at the aft port door was wearing a brown or red/brown suit.
- the body underneath the flagbox in the starboard bridge wing had a tattoo on his right hand.

Reportedly neither Captain Andresson nor Juhan Herma nor Kaimar Kikas had a tattoo on their right hand and certainly none of them was wearing a brown or red/brown suit. So, who are the three bodies on the bridge and where does this information come from?
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Estonia Ferry Disaster
 
Vixen said:
If these two guys who claimed to have climbed down the car deck ramp (in a roaring storm) when they could have simply jumped into the water, did indeed climb down the car ramp, then the car ramp must have been firmly shut in order for them to do so.

If the bow visor supposedly pulled the car ramp wide open then there is no way anyone could climb down the ramp. Indeed the Rockwater divers reveal that the ramp was closed when they dived down (circa 2 October 1994) apart from a 40cm gap at the top which was too narrow for a diver to pass through or access the car deck. (The latest Arikas expedition - July 1994 - has found the car ramp wide open hanging on one hinge.)
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From where exactly do these survivors claim to have got onto the ramp, and how far over was the ship listing at the time? They obviously weren't standing on the deck if the ship was on its side.

The locks and actuators for the ramp were found to be variously mangled and torn off, so the fact that the divers found it only about a metre open at the top (in the report's words) doesn't tell us what position it was in at various times during the sinking.

Also the Rockwater divers went down in December, not November, and I'm pretty sure the Arikas expedition did not happen in July 1994.
 
JesseCuster said:
And what has that to do with the history of the Baltic sea being heavily mined in the past and the existence of past conflict in the Baltic?

I can't relate this to speculation that a minisub sailed up to the Estonia attached a mine to the ship which caused it to sink.
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You see the plan was originally for an intelligence agency (CIA, Swedes, Russians, Isrealis... we just don't know) to plant explosives on the MV Estonia, and then blame it on a WW2 sea mine. But, for some reason there just are no signs explosive damage on the Estonia.... so what to do, what to do?? OH! Blame it on the bow visor failing, very convenient!

Maybe this is Vixens reasoning for bringing up sea mines? I can only speculate.
 
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Jack by the hedge said:
Curious. If that book was really published on 1st January 1995 then that's only 3 months after the sinking and barely 3 weeks after the diving survey report was submitted to the investigators.

Do you actually have a copy of the book, to confirm it was actually published on that date, or are you indirectly referencing it from elsewhere?
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It is in Estonian. I do not speak Estonian. Therefore, I have not read it, only references to what is in it.
 
phiwum said:
You really must give citations when you say things like this. Else, how do we know it's true?

Moreover, we've already seen you report earlier that several witnesses reported hearing explosions, but that turned out to be very misleading. They reported bangs, but not explicitly explosions. Thus, a citation to your actual source is really needed for this and many of your other claims.
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I didn't give it much credence so I didn't make a note of where I saw it. Mainly because the reference was in the third person. If I find the original account I'll be sure to post it here.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
Curious. If that book was really published on 1st January 1995 then that's only 3 months after the sinking and barely 3 weeks after the diving survey report was submitted to the investigators.

Do you actually have a copy of the book, to confirm it was actually published on that date, or are you indirectly referencing it from elsewhere?
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Meister was Head of the JAIC so had access to all of the information up to his resignation, other than what he claims the Swedes withheld.
 
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lobosrul5 said:
Some "minor differences" (sarcasm) between MV Estonia and USS Cole:

The Cole was not underway, and not in heavy seas. Please consider whether a small craft in heavy seas would be able to attach an explosive devices in force 7 conditions.

It was a suicide attack, not something Russian agents are known for. Certainly not in the 1990's.

The explosion lifted the ship and immediately caused casualties. We have no witness testimony from the Estonia corroborating anything like this.

The Cole did not sink. Being a military ship, she has far superior damage control equipment, compartmentalization, and training than a commercial ferry. This fact has been noted, repeatedly by ex Royal Navy sailors in this thread.

Look at the damage the Cole received:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Cole_bombing#/media/File:INTEL-COGNITIVE-Cole.jpg

Now, compare it to the hull damage you've noted on the MV Estonia. Does it actually look remotely similar to you? Please be honest.
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Thanks for the info. However, I already said: Obviously the damage to the USS Cole is far greater than that seen on the Estonia.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
From where exactly do these survivors claim to have got onto the ramp, and how far over was the ship listing at the time? They obviously weren't standing on the deck if the ship was on its side.

The locks and actuators for the ramp were found to be variously mangled and torn off, so the fact that the divers found it only about a metre open at the top (in the report's words) doesn't tell us what position it was in at various times during the sinking.

Also the Rockwater divers went down in December, not November, and I'm pretty sure the Arikas expedition did not happen in July 1994.
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Date now corrected, ta! The car ramp likely had never locked properly for a while as it was leaky and the mating lugs did not align. The locks and bolts remain on the seabed so we'll never know their true condition other than what a diver noted in his notes.

I don't know how they got to the car ramp to climb down it. However, from looking at the picture and diagram of the vessel it is possible to reach it from perhaps if they had been standing on the port as it was horizontal (list at 90 °) and then the slid down on their stomachs over the side to reach it getting a footing on one of the ridges. I can't see what they would have gripped onto though with their fingers. Presumably there was some kind of railing or piping that helped them if indeed they did manage this.
 
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Vixen said:
If these two guys who claimed to have climbed down the car deck ramp (in a roaring storm) when they could have simply jumped into the water, did indeed climb down the car ramp, then the car ramp must have been firmly shut in order for them to do so.

If the bow visor supposedly pulled the car ramp wide open then there is no way anyone could climb down the ramp. Indeed the Rockwater divers reveal that the ramp was closed when they dived down (circa 2 October 1994) apart from a 40cm gap at the top which was too narrow for a diver to pass through or access the car deck. (The latest Arikas expedition - July 2021 - has found the car ramp wide open hanging on one hinge.)
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Why would you jump in to a 'roaring storm'?
 
Vixen said:
Given that the mines are certainly there, especially around the old so-called Baltic States governed by the Soviet Union, including East Germany (whose main port along the Baltic is Rostock) and Poland, it is something you might expect the JAIC to have ruled out?
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Where are the mines in relation to the sinking?
Are there actually any mines?
Where are they marked on navigation charts?
If there are mines then they will be marked with a boundary and the legend 'Danger Area' in red.
What type are they?

The North Sea is also home to mines unaccounted for from the two world wars.

They didn't rule out a giant Kraken, should it be considered?
 
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Vixen said:
If we take it in good faith the diver/s did indeed see all of this in their examination of the wreck then hijacking becomes a possibility as it seems unlikely the crew would shoot the captain unless there was some kind of mutiny (which they would have to answer for). With smuggling going on - including suspicions of people smuggling - who knows what gangsters were on board.

Nobody even knows if the passenger list was complete as a passenger list was not kept.
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Why would anyone shoot the captain if they were blowing the ship up?

Mutiny? Why would there be a mutiny?
 
Vixen said:
Can't rule it out? In the Al-Quaeda terrorist attack on USS Cole in 2000 a small boat did exactly that: ram into the side of the vessel with a load of explosives:

wiki

Interestingly, USS Cole did not sink. Obviously the damage to the USS Cole is far greater than that seen on the Estonia.
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If you can't see the difference between the sinking of the Estonia and the Cole then you are lost.

Doesn't the fact that the Cole suffered more damage to the hull and didn't sink give you pause for thought?

Why do you think that is?
 
Vixen said:
The first official helicopter didn't arrive for quite a while. This survivor was talking about almost straight away iirc.

The thing supposedly 'picking up survivors but not all of them' was a small black ship that appeared out of nowhere likewise. (Claims a survivor.)
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'small black ship' that no one else noticed?

Where do you think it cam e from and where did it go?
Who did it pick up?
 
Vixen said:
If this was sabotage, then it is likely tp have been a war between rival intelligence agencies and their defence forces, given how efficiently the boat sank within half an hour or so; the Channel 16 May Day communications channel cut off and continuous signal interference and the entire phone network down for the duration, then we can expect it to show military and naval finesse, so why not weapons available at their fingertips, including mines.
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Where is the evidence for the radio channel being 'cut off' and the signal interference?
Where did the 'interference' originate? what area did it cover?
How do you think you 'cut off' or interfere with a radio signal?
We went through this at length already in the thread.

Where is the evidence for the phone network being down?

Do you know how a radio works?
 
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