Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

[whoanellie]

Were the Amanda Knox threads this level of epic fail? It’s just pathetic.

Yes, they were. You may now be beginning to understand why that thread has gone on for so long.

Yes. There is a pattern here somewhere.

 

[Andy_Ross]

It very clearly says:

ibid


Note the inclusion of the sentence, "During the flight comes a TT flash. A surviving crew member says he saw that Estonia's bow gates were open." to try to link in the reader's mind to Carl Bildt.

Really? Bildt was informed by a news agency? Can you imagine the Prime Minister or President of a country would get his or her information from a hack? Do Boris Johnson, Macron, Trudeau, Putin or Joe Biden get their information from Reuters, TASS or AP News...?

No, of course they do not. These guys have direct pagers with their Defence forces! Remember that time the USSR president was ready to activate a nuclear trigger in his brief case, due to a false alarm caused by a straying aircraft? Was he informed of this incursion by TASSA? Don't be silly!

News reporters were at the hospitals, landing sites and even on the helicopters.
Why is it difficult to think one of them reported what a survivor said before the politicians found out?

Why do you think anyone involved with military intelligence would be involved in a civil matter?

 

[Vixen]

They could have been in the employment of the police* or of the union. And the evidence suggests that they were a mixture of both.

However, what we do know is that none of them was a serving police officer. Which is all that's relevant when it comes to assessing - and outright rejecting - your ludicrous claims around shady police presence aboard the Estonia that night.


* Incidentally though, you need to drop all this nonsense about "whether as.... CEO": notwithstanding the fact that police forces do not have CEOs (LMAO), every single operational management within a police force is filled by a serving officer. Not an administrator. An administrator might well serve as head of HR, or head of IT, or head of finance. But not in any roles which related to operational policing. Obviously.

I was not looking for 'would, could, or should'. I was asking for factual information, not 'opinion'.

The article referenced states:

There were 63 civilian employees on board within the Police due to a trade union conference on the merger into a police authority in Stockholm. Five of them were rescued.


<snip>

Both Claes Cassel and Mikael Sjöstedt lost several station colleagues in the disaster. They carry memories that were immortalized by photographers and spread around the world.

<snip>

She was 32 years old and a civilian employee of the Police at the passport unit at Norr Mälarstrand. In addition, Karin Svenning spent a lot of time on union work for ST within the police and would eventually become the organization's chairman. It was because of her later engagement that she was in Estonia that fateful night.

Polis Tidningen

 

[Here_to_learn]

Note the inclusion of the sentence, "During the flight comes a TT flash. A surviving crew member says he saw that Estonia's bow gates were open." to try to link in the reader's mind to Carl Bildt.

You used this document to try to confirm your earlier statement. You are now saying that the document is lying, and that the documents support your point by saying the exact opposite?

Well, that is not how it works.

Really? Bildt was informed by a news agency?

No, you are really missing the point. TT (the news agency) informed everybody on their subscriber list about this. That's what happens when they put out a flash.

Can you imagine the Prime Minister or President of a country would get his or her information from a hack? Do Boris Johnson, Macron, Trudeau, Putin or Joe Biden get their information from Reuters, TASS or AP News...?

No, of course they do not. These guys have direct pagers with their Defence forces! Remember that time the USSR president was ready to activate a nuclear trigger in his brief case, due to a false alarm caused by a straying aircraft? Was he informed of this incursion by TASSA? Don't be silly!

Of course the PMs and presidents gets information from the wire services. Of course they have staff monitoring the wire services and broadcast, and ensure that the leaders are told what is going on.

 

[Vixen]

Becoming a member of a trade union, whether mandatory (surely rare these days) or not, does not make you an employee of the union, you remain employed by your regular employer, which is rather the point.

If they were union employees they would not be police.

Any lingering confusion?

In the UK, the biggest union is Unison, who have their own building in Euston Road and their own workforce. So I just wanted to clarify whether these employees were trade union employees or police employees. People here are saying the group of 68 on the Estonia 'were not really police'.

 

[Here_to_learn]

Polis Tidningen

You are translating it incorrectly. The last sentence should be "...that she was on Estonia..."

 

[Vixen]

Neat.

Where are the ventilation ducts on the upper decks? You know, that supposedly air-tight superstructure.

The top row, represents the top deck. The orange bits are the ventilation ducts.

 

[Here_to_learn]

In the UK, the biggest union is Unison, who have their own building in Euston Road and their own workforce. So I just wanted to clarify whether these employees were trade union employees or police employees. People here are saying the group of 68 on the Estonia 'were not really police'.

No, we are saying that they were civil servants employed by the Police, not police officers employed by the Police.

 

[Vixen]

But you're at least opening up the suggestion that some individual or group with a grudge against the Swedish police found out (somehow) that a group of administrators linked to the Swedish police (but who weren't even actually police officers themselves) were going to be aboard the Estonia that night, and that this individual or group consequently decided to engineer the sinking of the entire ship in some form of revenge....?

We're entering the realms of severe CT disturbance at this point.

You really are not conversant with the political landscape of the time. Assassinated Prime Minister Olaf Palme was a 'friend' of Kurdish groups. There was a LOT of [recorded] illegal immigrants* coming across on the passenger ferries. Yes, when a passenger ferry with seventy -odd police bods is known to be travelling, who knows which terrorist group with a grudge is lying in wait. Especially as Palme's supporters are convinced Palme's assassination was a insider intelligence job and not a random middle-aged bloke. Whether this is fact or fantasy, it remains true that there were possible elements in the underworld looking for revenge, be it justified or misguided.

*IIRC a large number of illegal Kurds in a container truck had been intercepted earlier in the year.

 

[Vixen]

This has nothing to do with political slant or tabloid tactics. It has to do with the reliability of information early in the unfolding of a tragedy. Referring back to information that may have been superseded by later information is dishonest.

In which way? The fact Sweden was caught doing it - letting the CIA dictate they allow registered asylum seekers be snatched off the street and summarily disappeared to who knows where - in 2002, indicates they were not averse to submitting to the demands of the CIA, despite signing up to the treaty circa 1999 (iirc).

 

[Vixen]

Is it inconceivable they issued a warrant against a missing man they wanted, in case he turned up alive somewhere?

Bengt Stenmark, Minister of Transport told a press conference Avo Piht had been interviewed in Turku. How do you reconcile that?

Why would the police issue an Interpol arrest warrant without satisfying themselves Piht was a survivor?

As 90% of people on Estonia died why would they begin to make that assumption? Unless of course Piht was listed as a survivor and was not just the product of rumour.

 

[Vixen]

A few points:

1. Your first image is titled "flooded ventilation ducts and compartments.

2. These ducts and compartments are described as flooded, so (if you are right) the car deck doors must have been breached.

3. Your link doesn't work

https://tore.tuhh.de/bitstream/11420/487/1/Promotion_Kehren.pdf

Herewith, again.

 

[Vixen]

Vixini keeps using that word...

But seriously, it seems a fairly obvious possibility that the Estonian authorities were simply trying their luck.

Why would they assume he had (a) gone into hiding and (b) that he was a crime suspect?


'The evil flee when no man pursueth'.

 

[Vixen]

Exactly.

As a corollary: I've spent a fair chunk of my career working in investment banking - as an investment banker. And I'm always amused whenever certain people who've made the news (usually for unedifying reasons) are labelled as "investment bankers" by the media.

What's usually actually happening is that the media have found out - correctly - that people work for a given investment bank.... but then they make the unwarranted leap to assume that all employees of an investment bank are investment bankers. Whereas I can virtually guarantee (and know for a fact wrt one instance in particular) that in most cases these people are back-office staff rather than bankers.

That just sounds like snobbery. I knew a guy who worked for UBS Investment Bank. We had a large amount of our reserve capital with UBS and periodically we'd meet to discuss its performance. He had a Physics degree from Imperial College. Investment Banker was just his job title AFAIAA.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

In which way? The fact Sweden was caught doing it - letting the CIA dictate they allow registered asylum seekers be snatched off the street and summarily disappeared to who knows where - in 2002, indicates they were not averse to submitting to the demands of the CIA, despite signing up to the treaty circa 1999 (iirc).

They weren't disappeared, they were deported back to Egypt. Yes, the decision was a controversial one but they weren't "disappeared" they were deported back home. They didn't go missing at any point.

Further, the issues with the deportation were to do with how they would be treated when they went back to Egypt, and the Swedes only allowed the deportation to go ahead once it had received assurances that they would be treated humanely. They were arrested on the street, yes, but much like anyone who was being deported would be.

Your imagination is running away with you again.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

That just sounds like snobbery. I knew a guy who worked for UBS Investment Bank. We had a large amount of our reserve capital with UBS and periodically we'd meet to discuss its performance. He had a Physics degree from Imperial College. Investment Banker was just his job title AFAIAA.

How is "the media often describes people who work at an investment bank but aren't actually investment bankers incorrectly as such" snobbery?

Would you consider it fair if the BBC referred to a back office functionary of your accountancy firm as a chartered accountant?

 

[Vixen]

Why do car deck doors need to be breached for ventilators to flood?
Ventilators aren’t behind doors, if they are they aren’t ventilating.
A ship has lots of ventilators for engines, generators, air conditioning, galleys, and fresh air systems.
Engine Rooms have huge ventilators and electric turbo fans and equally large air and machinery exhausts.
They are not watertight from above.

The car ramp doors were watertight and had gaskets. Because of the known danger of free surface effect they had to be. There was also a policy of their being locked to passenger during the journey, although there are reports of passengers who preferred to sleep in their car or truck than book a cabin and others who said they looked into the car deck to witness crew with blow torches and arc oxy-acetylene welding on previous journeys trying to fix this that or the other at the car ramp.

Silve Linde, the watchman on duty said he went to the information desk on the 4th Deck to ask that the car deck doors be unlocked, - whether he was telling the truth or not - confirms that they were kept locked and only authorised personnel could access them.

 

[Vixen]

First of all, they are not "shop stewards" or have a "shop floor union meeting", for the simple reason that they are from Sweden. They are "fackliga representanter" and the went to a "facklig konferens".

You cannot and should not try to understand this from any other context than then Swedish legal an cultural one. Don't try to translate this into whatever legal and cultural context happen to come first in mind for you.

A direct translation of "facklig representant" is "union representative". This does not mean that it in any way can be compared with the situation in any other country, labor laws are different, and the way unions are set up is not the same.

There are not enough details in the sources I have seen to be able to fully identify if 100% of the participants were employed by the Swedish police (as civil servants), or if one or more were employed by the union. The unions employ specialists in different subjects, so it's not impossible that some of those joined the conference to assist the union representatives from the police organisation that was discussing the reorganisation.

And to understand why the union would discuss such a topic you need to understand what MBL is, and why that is important in Sweden. However, I cannot see why an explanation of that has anything to do with M/S Estonia.

Thanks. I can understand why reorganisation and restructure would require union assistance.

 

[Vixen]

In the context you posted that in, what you claimed “had been happening” was Sweden disappearing people. And here’s what you said about it only yesterday:


That’s a clear claim that the Rome Statute says that Sweden disappeared people.

The very next subsection of the Statute after the one about disappearances is about apartheid. Do you think that it shows that Sweden had been operating an apartheid system?

As I said, I am out on this topic. I don't believe you are arguing in good faith.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

It very clearly says:

ibid


Note the inclusion of the sentence, "During the flight comes a TT flash. A surviving crew member says he saw that Estonia's bow gates were open." to try to link in the reader's mind to Carl Bildt.

Really? Bildt was informed by a news agency? Can you imagine the Prime Minister or President of a country would get his or her information from a hack? Do Boris Johnson, Macron, Trudeau, Putin or Joe Biden get their information from Reuters, TASS or AP News...?

No, of course they do not. These guys have direct pagers with their Defence forces! Remember that time the USSR president was ready to activate a nuclear trigger in his brief case, due to a false alarm caused by a straying aircraft? Was he informed of this incursion by TASSA? Don't be silly!

So we can agree that it absolutely does not say the things you claim it says, and you got to the claims by a combination of reading comprehension failure and your personal assumptions about how politicians get their information i.e. sheer invention.