The Secret

[Dancing David]

Science has a culture to it, in a social sense. For those who have had little to no exposure to art, a Rodin sculpture is simply a lump of metal, except to those few who pick up on the message somewhat instinctively.
To really understand the eloquence of a Theory like Evolution, one must have a mindset, a connection upon which to frame it.

I have made a new friend recently(YAY ME!) who, like most people around central IL, is a Xian.

I live in Shampoo-Banana, the oasis in Mighty Whitey Land.

 

[Dancing David]

It's starts with the education. The teachers are biased against science in most of my experiences. I have no idea what quantum physics is, what astronomy is. I only know about evolution and life sciences because I paid big bucks to go to college. My grade 8 science teacher told me evolution was CRAP, and to ignore the part of the textbook that went over the earth's age, time periods, etc.

My teacher right now is against "chemicals", "drugs", and "conventional medicine". How do these teachers get these jobs? They don't have the background, they don't have the secondary education. Yet they are allowed to teach the garbage they think is "true" in spite of the course materials.

This isn't right, and it breeds these crazy ideals that make the woos of the week rich. It's not right.

Great posts guys. Keep them coming. It's helping me think through this. How do I explain science without arguing, like clarsct did? Kudos clarsct!

Sounds like you have had some dreadful teachers.

Science is the practice of replaction of events. The variables present at the event are controlled so that hopefully only one variable is changed at a time. Then there is the consclusion that changes in the evnt are related to teh change in the single variable.

In social science the problem is that many people are not practicing science but opinion.

 

[Dancing David]

Well, we really just debated, in a friendly manner. He's pretty good with Evolution now, but not so sure about Abiogenesis.

How do you make sense of Abiogenesis to someone without a biochem degree? Oh, and make it make sense and entertaining enough that they actually listen?

Until we can accomplish that, we're going to have problems with the IDiots.

You use the doohickey and thingamabob model.

In the primordial ocean there were many chemicals and various compounds of chemicals. Imagine that there is a compound that we call a doohickey, this doohickey has the abilioty to help create the chemical compund thangamabob. This is called catalyze. Imagine then that we have a third compound federcal that has it's creation aided by thingamabob. That means that the precense of doohickey makes the precense of thingamabob more likely, and thus they both make the precense of federcal more likely. Imagine then that the precense of federcal makes the creation of doohickey more likely. We then have three compounds that all together create an enviroment where the other compounds are more likely to exist. This is called a self catalyzing set.
Etc.

 

[Apathia]

I would personaly avoid anything by Dion Fortune.

I prefer J.K. Rowling to Dion Fortune.

 

[Dancing David]

She (JK) is a much better author, the psychic detective stuff of Dion is truely gagful, I read it in desperation, just like I read Lord Foul's Bane. (It was cold and snowy, there was nothing in the house to read at all)

 

[SirPhilip]

Yep. If you believe it, you can make it happen! Control the world around you, control others, with your MIND!
If you want it, you can make it happen!

(Brother Philip stares at his system, hoping it will transform into an nVidia Quadro Plex..)

This doesn't appear to be working.

 

[Ratatoskr]

So the reason I don't win the lottery is because I don't believe in it?

Just have to try harder I guess...

 

[Dancing David]

(Brother Philip stares at his system, hoping it will transform into an nVidia Quadro Plex..)

This doesn't appear to be working.

Crowley tells the following story:

An adept sits by the river for many years focusing his concentration and will on learning to walk on water. After a great deal of time he focuses his mind, emotions and imagination to the point where he stands and walks across the river on the water. he goes to his master and tells hil "Master, i have just crossed the river by walking on the water!"
His master looks at him and shakes his head in dismay and says "Foolish man, people have been using the ferry everyday to cross the river.

 

[Avita]

That's pretty much it. I admit it's probably a subjective judgement on my part to find the New Age prattle more disgusting.

If you don't get what you want in the Secret model of reality, it's all your fault because reality is at your beck and command.

But even with the prayer model, you had to agknowledge that reality was more complex than your genie. There are others involved with wills and desires including all those other people praying for favorable outcomes and God's own will.

Secret: Everyone is expected to serve your desires.
Prayer: Parent in the sky can say no.
Reality: You learn to share your toys.

I guess I'd say the Secret is infantile.

Thanks for the explanation. I agree about it being infantile, except that I still think that both the secret and prayer can be equally infantile. Earthborn gives an example:

I disagree. Most people who believe in prayer believe that God has a say in the matter. God can decide not to grant what you wish for. That's a pretty substantial difference. If you don't get what you want, you can say that God has other plans for you and other considerations and that since God knows best, it is for the better that you don't get what you wanted. Prayer tends to make people accept whatever the outcome is; they plead their case to God but do not expect to always get what they want. To many people, prayer is a ritual that helps them accept what comes their way.

This "Law of Attraction" whoever is supposed to work automatically and without any say in the matter. If you believe in it, you can only blame yourself for not getting what you want because you 'thought the wrong thoughts.' You don't have a "it's probably for the best" excuse.

Suppose two parents have dying children. One believes in prayer and prays to God that the child recovers. The other believes in this "Law of Attraction" thing and tries to save the child with the right thoughts. The children die. Which parent is going to have the least emotional problems: the one who now says "I prayed, but God wanted her besides Him and He must have had His mysterious reasons." or the one who must now admit "I killed her because I could not stop myself thinking about her dying." ?

Add to that the fact that most people who believe in prayer do not believe that you should bother God with material demands (like Mercedes Benzes) while the Law of Attraction just encourages one to be greedy.

But we know that people who believed in prayer have come up with all sorts of ingenious "reasons" for why their prayer might have failed ("I'm a sinner, so God is punishing me by killing my daughter, so really, I am the one who killed her.") So, despite there being only one "reason" provided so far by the "official secret," I have no doubt that people who don't want to blame themselves for the failure of their desires will find alternative explanations. It's not that hard - the people in this thread have already come up with plenty (It's not my fault my daughter's dead, because I know I was only thinking good thoughts - someone else must have been thinking nasty negative thoughts about her.) So in the end, I think the exact degree of infantile-ness of either prayer or the secret depends a lot on the person.

Also, just to clarify what I meant by God being unable to help responding to your prayers - yes, the Great Sky Daddy can say no. But he still has to listen first, and probably, to have important reasons for saying no. (I am reminded irresistibly of Tevye in the "Fiddler on the Roof" - "Would it spoil some vast, eternal plan/ If I were a wealthy man?")