-
Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more
- Status
Mike!
Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Re
I'd be okay with that option as well.
lobosrul5
Philosopher
I'd be willing to negotiate on point 5... A hanging is acceptable too.
jeremyp
Philosopher
No that's barbaric. I'd let him off with a frank discussion with the relatives of 50 Ukrainians killed in the war.
Behind closed doors.
No other witnesses
No cameras.
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2009
- Messages
- 18,941
I am sad that you think so lowly of the Ukrainian people.
That you think among any 50 there would be some to carry out lynch murders, and a majority to cover that up.
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
I'd favor defenestration, myself.
Mike!
Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Re
You know, I'm anything if not magnanimous, and with that said, I'd give him his choice of abrupt exit strategies, as long as the very end result is the same, Putin is 100% neutralised from further participation in the human race.
While I appreciate the thought in general, I like to think better of the Ukrainians than that too.
Last edited:
autumn1971
Illuminator
I strongly disagree. I think it would be a person taking a very real mental health hit to make the world a better place.
Life is biology, and biology is messy
It would be a lot more than 50. The comment stated the relatives of 50 killed Ukrainians. I'd be willing to bet you'd find people happy to carry out a lynching of a mass murderer in that amount of people in any society.
Everyone else covering it up may be trickier.
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
Indeed. It would be more likely that bragging and awarding would be happening.
Poisoned underwear first, though.
arthwollipot
Limerick Purist Pronouns: He/Him
I guess I won't get very far in this thread pointing out that even war criminals have human rights and are entitled to a fair trial and due process according to international law?
GraculusTheGreenBird
Muse
No, you won't.
I doubt many here would shed a tear if that particular war criminal ingested a cup of polonium, had a window related incident etc.
Is it morally wrong to hope for such, and are his human rights important? Oh yes.
Do we care?
Nah.
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
To poke at this... it's actually truly questionable if it's even morally wrong, given rather similar principles to the paradox of tolerance. Right now, he's effectively been given the right to utterly trample on and destroy the human rights of so many others with no actually good cause in the first place and that is not at all a desirable situation. That right needs taken away from him, preferably in the most expeditious manner to curb the harm being done as much as possible. If that means violating his human rights? The net benefit to human rights is still overwhelming, because it means a heck of a lot fewer violations of human rights. The rights of the few with power should not be treated, in practice, as outweighing the rights of the many without. Hence, it can certainly be morally right, even if not under all moral codes.
There's also the related matter of whether the best path being recommended - full respect to Putin's human rights and giving a fair trial with due process - is truly feasible in the first place. In this case, it's fairly certainly not at all feasible, which makes advocating for it more of a red herring than much else. A good ideal which simply cannot be put into practice is just irrelevant, in short. One could certainly argue in its defense that it's being recommended in response to something else that's pretty well irrelevant, of course, but then we get back to the how meaningless it would be to waste time on an argument about it as raised.
Adding additional suffering is slightly different issue, of course. If it were actually an effective deterrent, that would be one thing, but that's not likely to be a true premise in the first place.
Last edited:
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Mistreatment of POWs is mistreatment of POWs. You can't get mad about the waterboarding of terrorists and also fantasize about the lynching of Vladimir Putin. (Well you can, obviously, but it makes you look like a fool.)
The appeal to international law is a red herring, though. The only thing that matters in this is the laws and customs of whichever country has jurisdiction. Right now it's Moscow's laws and customs. I don't see that changing, but arth is welcome to give it a go if he thinks "international law" should take precedence. Personally, I'd settle for Ukrainian law. But I'd also settle for someone just barging into his office and shooting him in the face.
The appeal to international law is a red herring, though. The only thing that matters in this is the laws and customs of whichever country has jurisdiction. Right now it's Moscow's laws and customs. I don't see that changing, but arth is welcome to give it a go if he thinks "international law" should take precedence. Personally, I'd settle for Ukrainian law. But I'd also settle for someone just barging into his office and shooting him in the face.
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
I expect it's all moot when it comes to Putin. He'll shoot himself if a coup reaches him, he's not Saddam Hussein.
Mike!
Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Re
Which is kind of a pity, because it'd be great to see him hunted down like some rabid animal, and finally found hiding in a trash can sized hole in the ground, on live TV.
But enough fueling fantasies, please.
jeremyp
Philosopher
Absolutely not. It never crossed my mind that any Ukrainian would try to lynch Putin. If I had wanted that outcome, I'd have said use Russians instead, probably including veterans who came back from the war with significant injuries. We know that they have demonstrated a complete contempt for human life.
I am not in favour of the death penalty, so I don't accept that either of the two alternatives suggested by the others is a good punishment for Putin. I want him to understand the pain and suffering he has caused.
Last edited:
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Once again I'm reminded of the story of Ken McElroy. The people of a small town decided their local bully needed killing. So they arranged it, and then covered it up. Given what we know about the nature of his bullying, and the lack of response from the "proper" authorities, I don't think what those townsfolk did reflects badly on them at all.
I wouldn't begrudge Ukrainians a similar response, in a similar situation. Just as I don't begrudge the Americans their response, when they found Osama Bin Laden in Pakistan, and shot him in the face in his own home.
If Ukraine infiltrates Putin's personal staff, or sends commandos under cover of darkness, to find him where he lives and put an "extrajudicial" end to his life, I won't begrudge them that act, nor think less of them for carrying it out. On the contrary, I'd think less of anyone who complained that it wasn't "fair" or "humane" or "due process".
That said, I'm opposed to "killing by righteously indignant mob" as a formal method of execution. If the Hague were to turn Putin over to legitimately aggrieved Ukrainians, to dispose of him as they see fit in the depths of their grief and anger and desire for revenge... Actually, I may need to think about this some more.
ETA: I'm also reminded of that movie
I fully expect Putin to go out badly. Most likely by his own hand, or by the hand of one of his co-conspirators. I expect his death throes to be nasty, brutish, and short. I won't feel bad for him, or guilty about my satisfaction, when it happens. And if he dies a horrible, lingering death from multiple health complications and inferior healthcare, I won't feel bad about that, either. And if by some miracle the Ukrainians are the ones to make it happen, I won't feel bad about that, either. Not for him, and not for the Ukrainians. But I think the Ukrainians are probably more concerned about driving Moscow out of Ukraine, than about getting Ukrainian assassins into Moscow.
Last edited:
In my view it would be like shooting a rabid dog. Deposed tyrants are often dangerous even in captivity due to their supporters.
- Status