Cont: The Russian invasion of Ukraine part 6

[jeremyp]

To poke at something said on the last thread about Musk claiming to be losing money on Starlink in Ukraine, despite Poland, the UK, and the US already paying for most of it, his numbers don't make sense.

If the rates he claims he'll be able to offer Starlink service for generally are correct, Starlink has made at least a small profit off the units sent to Ukraine. If the costs cited in the letter to the Pentagon are correct, then Starlink will not be a viable operation at the rates Musk says he will continue to offer to the rest of the planet.

Most of the units sent to Ukraine are the home units, with plans between $60-150 USD, yet Starlink claims it costs them $4,500 a month each unit.

At least some part of this is nonsense, possibly all of it.

The $4,500 per month looks like the cost of the maritime version of Starlink which is the highest tier you can buy. From a military point of view, that's probably what you want. I imagine it offers the best guaranteed bandwidth and works a long way from any ground stations. The latter point would be important if SpaceX is reluctant to build any ground stations in a country currently at war with its neighbour.

If $4,500/month is what it actually costs SpaceX to operate a maritime connection, I'd be gravely concerned for the financial viability of Starlink. But note that it isn't just the operational costs that count: SpaceX probably has some pretty large loans it needs to service since it is not free to put the satellites in space or buy the terminals and you have to have them before you can sell any subscriptions.

 

[theprestige]

The free world cannot accept so-called referendums conducted during war or foreign occupation. Therefore Ukraine does have the right to try to retake Crimea. Unless we start seeing mass demonstrations there in support of the Russian annexation.

Even then.

 

[Craig4]

And we won't. Look at what Ukraine did on the eve of invasion. Their citizens made Laverov Cocktails, lined to up to be issued rifles and ammunition and built barricades. What happened in Crimea? People there raced to the ferries, went to the grocery store to stock up and filled up on gasoline. People in Crimea aren't there to fight. They want to either leave or stay in their homes until it's all over.

 

[Doubt]

News stories about Russia are stating that the head of Wagner is working on ousting the defense minister. Okay, what happens after that?

If Utkin can put a puppet in the job, he can control the Russian defense ministry. But he will have somebody else in place to take the fall when things don't get better.

If Utkin takes the job himself, things still won't improve since the fundamental problems are outside of the minster's control. When he cannot fix the problems, he will be in trouble. Easiest way to not end up on the wrong side of Putin is to make sure Putin is not a threat. And the guy has his own army.

Wagner group probably will at some point be seen as a threat to Putin anyway. Just a question of how fast that happens. Did these people ever read "The Prince"? Machiavelli had a lot to say about mercenaries and it isn't positive.

 

[Hevneren]

News stories about Russia are stating that the head of Wagner is working on ousting the defense minister. Okay, what happens after that?

If Utkin can put a puppet in the job, he can control the Russian defense ministry. But he will have somebody else in place to take the fall when things don't get better.

If Utkin takes the job himself, things still won't improve since the fundamental problems are outside of the minster's control. When he cannot fix the problems, he will be in trouble. Easiest way to not end up on the wrong side of Putin is to make sure Putin is not a threat. And the guy has his own army.

Wagner group probably will at some point be seen as a threat to Putin anyway. Just a question of how fast that happens. Did these people ever read "The Prince"? Machiavelli had a lot to say about mercenaries and it isn't positive.

Heh, especially Swiss mercenaries. Once you let them in, you’ll never get rid of them. And Machiavelli was right, just look at the pope’s life guard.


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[jimbob]

News stories about Russia are stating that the head of Wagner is working on ousting the defense minister. Okay, what happens after that?

If Utkin can put a puppet in the job, he can control the Russian defense ministry. But he will have somebody else in place to take the fall when things don't get better.

If Utkin takes the job himself, things still won't improve since the fundamental problems are outside of the minster's control. When he cannot fix the problems, he will be in trouble. Easiest way to not end up on the wrong side of Putin is to make sure Putin is not a threat. And the guy has his own army.

Wagner group probably will at some point be seen as a threat to Putin anyway. Just a question of how fast that happens. Did these people ever read "The Prince"? Machiavelli had a lot to say about mercenaries and it isn't positive.

Wagner aren't really conventional mercenaries, more like a deniable arm of the Kremlin.

But yes I was referencing The Prince on Twitter earlier today, as it does have parallels with Italian politics around the time of writing, and with the owners of several power bases competing for position when the current, weakened, leader goes.

 

[GlennB]

"Eleven Russian soldiers killed in mass shooting by fellow volunteers"

Guardian

 

[Hercules56]

"Eleven Russian soldiers killed in mass shooting by fellow volunteers"

Guardian

The mutiny continues.

 

[Doubt]

Wagner aren't really conventional mercenaries, more like a deniable arm of the Kremlin.

That just makes them sound like the Pretorian guard. Same ending is likely.

 

[timhau]

I've read that ordinary Russians can use VPNs to access foreign media. In fact, the government has been running a disinformation campaign to discourage people from using VPNs by falsely claiming that their use exposes one to identity theft.

I'd say they could, if they had an internet connection and knew languages other than Russian. For the masses outside the big cities both are doubtful.

 

[jimbob]

That just makes them sound like the Pretorian guard. Same ending is likely.

That is a closer analogy.l, I think, and which I have used.

There are several competing power bases. And the players seem to be behaving as though Putin's irrelevant.

I do think a lot of recent Russian military actions can be understood in terms of manouvering for a bloody palace fight after Putin.

 

[Craig4]

"Eleven Russian soldiers killed in mass shooting by fellow volunteers"

Guardian

That's terrific. This sort of thing will breed timidity in officers. If Russian commanders at all levels know murdering them is a real option for their soldiers, they'll be more timid in the battlespace.

 

[jeremyp]

There is no replacement for Putin who would be worse than Putin - simply because no one would have the level of control he has. Any new leader would be paralyzed by infighting.

Plus anyone in his inner circle of advisors and gatekeepers probably has a more realistic idea of the situation and of Russia's chances than he does. So even if they harbor the same neofascist, ultranationalist, Greater Russian sentiments, they're going to be more inclined to withdraw, lick their wounds, push a Great Betrayal narrative, and try to make a comeback ten years on. Rather than go out in a tantrumic blaze of nuclear "glory" right now.

If Putin is gone, 80+% of the efforts of the Russian State will go into finding and taking his billions.

I think it's very likely (but of course not certain) that in the short term any replacement regime, whether internally `better' or not, will behave better. Not for any moral reasons, but simply because they know the invasion is turning out as a disaster, and it's much easier for a new regime to withdraw without loss of face. (They can explicitly blame Putin for mistakes, or his advisers, or say that the objectives were already achieved a while ago, or whatever. Mostly things that Putin himself could easily have said before the fake referendums, but a new regime can still say them now.)

I really hope you are all correct, but I'm not as optimistic.

An ultra nationalist successor to Putin may decide to end the war by levelling Ukraine with tactical nukes. That wouldn't be a rational thing to do, but it would have the support of a lot of Russians and rationality, even now, is not something that Russia seems to do.

To me, all your arguments seem to be rationalising what you want to happen. I'm not saying that they are necessarily wrong (except the one about spending 80% of their effort tracking down Putin's money - that is ridiculous), I'm just saying the evidence for them is only as good as the evidence for the worst case scenario

 

[jeremyp]

The mutiny continues.

Denys Davydov characterised it as a dispute between Muslims conscripts and Christian conscripts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsJ5bzt47r0

It sounds credible but, whilst checking for this post, I couldn't find any sources to back up the assertion.

 

[SpitfireIX]

I'd say they could, if they had an internet connection and knew languages other than Russian. For the masses outside the big cities both are doubtful.

There are independent Russian-language news websites; additionally, the Voice of America and the BBC maintain Russian-language pages. Finally, at least some Ukrainian news organizations' websites are available in Russian.

As for lack of Internet access, I would argue that the big cities, especially Moscow and St. Petersburg, are the places where discontent is most likely to fester, and most likely to cause problems for Putin.

 

[Lplus]

I really hope you are all correct, but I'm not as optimistic.

An ultra nationalist successor to Putin may decide to end the war by levelling Ukraine with tactical nukes. That wouldn't be a rational thing to do, but it would have the support of a lot of Russians and rationality, even now, is not something that Russia seems to do.

To me, all your arguments seem to be rationalising what you want to happen. I'm not saying that they are necessarily wrong (except the one about spending 80% of their effort tracking down Putin's money - that is ridiculous), I'm just saying the evidence for them is only as good as the evidence for the worst case scenario

If WE can't have it NO-one can! Rational if the elimination of Democracy and Western Mores in Ukraine are more important to the Nationalists than being treated as a total pariah for the foreseeable future.

 

[a_unique_person]

Denys Davydov characterised it as a dispute between Muslims conscripts and Christian conscripts.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsJ5bzt47r0



It sounds credible but, whilst checking for this post, I couldn't find any sources to back up the assertion.

I read they were from a minority ex USSR country, so the type of people Putin wants to die for Russia but aren't worth any respect.

 

[Craig4]

I really hope you are all correct, but I'm not as optimistic.

An ultra nationalist successor to Putin may decide to end the war by levelling Ukraine with tactical nukes. That wouldn't be a rational thing to do, but it would have the support of a lot of Russians and rationality, even now, is not something that Russia seems to do.

To me, all your arguments seem to be rationalising what you want to happen. I'm not saying that they are necessarily wrong (except the one about spending 80% of their effort tracking down Putin's money - that is ridiculous), I'm just saying the evidence for them is only as good as the evidence for the worst case scenario

If Putin ends up face-down in his stroganoff, it will be because the financial impact of the war is hurting the interests of the oligarchs. Nuking Ukraine into oblivion won't make money for anyone. Putin built a kleptocracy and now the kleptocrats can't earn.

 

[crescent]

I really hope you are all correct, but I'm not as optimistic.

An ultra nationalist successor to Putin may decide to end the war by levelling Ukraine with tactical nukes. That wouldn't be a rational thing to do, but it would have the support of a lot of Russians and rationality, even now, is not something that Russia seems to do.

To me, all your arguments seem to be rationalising what you want to happen. I'm not saying that they are necessarily wrong (except the one about spending 80% of their effort tracking down Putin's money - that is ridiculous), I'm just saying the evidence for them is only as good as the evidence for the worst case scenario

I could also imagine such an ultra-nationalist pushing again with a big conventional offensive, one last exhaustive Hail Mary blitz in the most brutal Russian tradition. Putin's hands are somewhat tied in that regard because he's trying to balance these ultra's against the pushback from families concerned about the deaths of their loved ones. Ultranationalists, however would come to power on the promise of ignoring concerns about casualties. That would be very unsustainable and would deplete an already depleted Russian military. But in the short term it would make life in Ukraine more miserable again for awhile.

 

[The Don]

Another good (and lengthy) Perun video. This one is looking at air defence/air superiority