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The Russian Invasion of Ukraine Part 4

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Yes, when you cut off water, electricity and block trade, that's violent against the local population, and sanctions against Russia have been as violent as they have been absurd and unfair.
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Why does Ukraine or anyone else owe these things to anyone?

Did the newly created "free" Crimea have an agreement to receive water and electricity from Ukraine?

Did it have a trade pact in place? Even if so, Ukraine can argue their measures are consistent with the "essential security" clause of GATT. Russia has also done so. WTO even supports both claims as consistent with the treaty.

Violent implies some expected right or agreement has been violated.

I can take your same "they did it to themselves" philosophy. If Crimeans voted to secede from Ukraine and not have any plan in place for provision of basic services, that was kinda stupid, right?

If I quit my job on the spot today, is my employer being "violent" if they stop paying me?

Russia annexed Crimea. Wouldn't it then be Russia's responsibility to provide services?

If someone breaks into my house and steals my television, am I now required to buy them dinner and pay their electric bill?
 
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Delphic Oracle said:
Why does Ukraine or anyone else owe these things to anyone?

Did the newly created "free" Crimea have an agreement to receive water and electricity from Ukraine?

Did it have a trade pact in place? Even if so, Ukraine can argue their measures are consistent with the "essential security" clause of GATT. Russia has also done so. WTO even supports both claims as consistent with the treaty.

Violent implies some expected right or agreement has been violated.

I can take your same "they did it to themselves" philosophy. If Crimeans voted to secede from Ukraine and not have any plan in place for provision of basic services, that was kinda stupid, right?

If I quit my job on the spot today, is my employer being "violent" if they stop paying me?

Russia annexed Crimea. Wouldn't it then be Russia's responsibility to provide services?

If someone breaks into my house and steals my television, am I now required to buy them dinner and pay their electric bill?
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I agree with you that, if Crimeans receives electricity from Ukraine, they should normally pay for it. However, it seems that, in 2014 the supply of electricity was brutally cut off because of political reasons, not because of unpaid bills.

As for water, this is water flowing naturally from the Dniepr river, it doesn't cost anything to Ukraine (except for modest maintenance costs), so I suppose it should remain mostly free. Ukraine should try to keep good relations with its Crimean neighbors, instead of trying to bully them into submission, excited by its British and American pseudo-friends.
 
Michel H said:
I agree with you that, if Crimeans receives electricity from Ukraine, they should normally pay for it. However, it seems that, in 2014 the supply of electricity was brutally cut off because of political reasons, not because of unpaid bills.



As for water, this is water flowing naturally from the Dniepr river, it doesn't cost anything to Ukraine (except for modest maintenance costs), so I suppose it should remain mostly free. Ukraine should try to keep good relations with its Crimean neighbors, instead of trying to bully them into submission, excited by its British and American pseudo-friends.
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Crimea was taken for political reasons.
 
crescent said:
...
Meanwhile, half the world still seems utterly convinced that the nation led by the Jewish guy are the real Nazis. The nation with the elected Jewish leader, that accepts gay people and transgender people ...
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No no no, you don't get it. Ukraine is a den of brutal nazism because it dreams criminal dreams of a 'Greater Ukraine' by ... simply wanting to keep its territory as it has been for many decades!
 
Michel H said:
... It is possible that the Russians actually had to send some troops there to protect democracy ...
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See, this is where you show your true colors. A more cynical lie has rarely been told on these pages.
 
Michel H said:
...
As for water, this is water flowing naturally from the Dniepr river...
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No.
It is dumb to lie so very obviously. Kinda weakens your pretensions at "argument" if everyone can clearly see that you lie so very obviously.
 
Michel H said:
Not necessarily, I would read the reports and opinions of experts to make up my mind.

Ideally, there should be some kind of neutral, United Nations-led, interim administration in order for a referendum to be completely reliable, with no intimidation or interference.

However, we don't live in an ideal world, and it seems pretty well known that Russian-speaking Crimea is pro-Russian.

The various blockades inflicted to Crimea by Ukraine from 2014 probably didn't do much to boost pro-Ukrainian sentiment there:

(https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...dam-that-blocked-water-crimea-ria-2022-02-26/)

Ukraine should apologize for this horrible crime (cutting off fresh water to a whole population).

At the end of World War 2, Finland (which had sided with Nazi Germany for a while) accepted to cede land to the Soviet Union:

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vyborg#Winter_and_Continuation_wars)
and this led to many years of peace. This is perhaps a good model, that Ukraine should follow.
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<sigh> Correction: Finland was a co-belligerent* against USSR. That is the official designation. It never adopted Nazi German ideals or governance. These terms do not just mean what you want them to mean. Accuracy is important.

*Just as Britain was a co-belligerent with France in the Crimean War against Russia (which then included the Duchy of Finland), see Battle of Bomarsund 1854. It doesn't mean Britain ever had French ideals.
 
Michel H said:
I don't think I am the only one:

(https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/albertonardelli/trump-russia-crimea)


??
Therre are also people, in Crimea!
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Historically, Crimea has been very Russian, so whilst the Russian occupation of it in 2014 was wrong and the west should have done more to protest and sanction Russia against it, I believe having conceded Crimea to Russia, then it is best to let that sleeping dog lie. However, the aggressors need to be forced back from Donbass and Moldova protected as of current affairs today, IMV.
 
Vixen said:
"Here in Eurasia" we have some 55,000,000 sq km and 5,360,351,985 people (as of 16 October 2019), 70% of the human population. Perhaps the ideology of how things should be in Eurasia belongs to philosophy and future economics rather than the here and now of war in Ukraine by a totally unwarranted aggressor, Russia.
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Dude, I was talking to a Canadian.
 
Vixen said:
Historically, Crimea has been very Russian, so whilst the Russian occupation of it in 2014 was wrong and the west should have done more to protest and sanction Russia against it, I believe having conceded Crimea to Russia, then it is best to let that sleeping dog lie. However, the aggressors need to be forced back from Donbass and Moldova protected as of current affairs today, IMV.
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'Let the sleeping doe lie'?

But there is no 'sleeping dog' it is very much awake and savaging Ukraine. It was never asleep.

This won't be over until the Russians are back to their pre 2014 border. What do you think is the purpose of the sanctions imposed after they invaded?
 
Vixen said:
I don't think Michel H is trolling, I get the impression he is some kind of pacificist, which of course he is entitled to be.
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No, he's not a pacifist, he is all for violence and war as long as it favours Russia, why else would he be encouraging their aggression?
 
Vixen said:
*Just as Britain was a co-belligerent with France in the Crimean War against Russia (which then included the Duchy of Finland), see Battle of Bomarsund 1854. It doesn't mean Britain ever had French ideals.
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As far as the Crimean War was concerned and the reasons for it, Britain very much did have the same ideals as the French.
 
Update: Russian diplomat resigns. Beginning of the end for Putin...?


BREAKING: &#55356;&#56823;&#55356;&#56826; Russia’s Counsellor to the United Nations in Geneva has resigned.

Boris Bondarev: “Never have I been so ashamed of my country.”

UN Watch is now calling on all other Russian diplomats at the United Nations—and worldwide—to follow his moral example and resign.
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https://twitter.com/HillelNeuer/status/1528668629482541057?s=20&t=IX0MziXVk1DVkUgQcyMWyg

Sure to be highly embarrassing for Putin, with the FSB falling apart and strategy put into the hands of GRU instead.
 
In a bizarre case of accusing your enemies of what you yourself are doing.....

Lukashenko used the briefing to raise concerns over what he described as the West's attempts to "dismember" Ukraine, accusing Poland of trying to seize the nation's western region.

He also appeared to suggest Kyiv would eventually need to ask for help - from Belarus and Russia - to prevent this seizure happening.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/wor...8b7324b622de4ef91223fd&pinned_post_type=share

Sure Alexander, the threat to Ukraine's territorial integrity comes from Poland. :rolleyes:
 
New Zealand are going to go to the UK to train Ukrainians in the use of field artillery:

New Zealand will send a small number of troops from its defence force to the UK to train Ukrainian soldiers in using field artillery guns, the government announced on Monday.

Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said 30 personnel will be deployed to the UK until the end of July to train Ukrainian forces in the use of L119 105mm howitzer guns.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/wor...8b4c76b622de4ef91223bf&pinned_post_type=share

Oh noes, those poor Ukrainians will end up talking funny :D
 
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