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The Roe Countdown

When will Roe v Wade be overturned

  • Before 31 December 2020

    Votes: 20 18.3%
  • Before 31 December 2022

    Votes: 27 24.8%
  • Before 31 December 2024

    Votes: 9 8.3%
  • SCOTUS will not pick a case up

    Votes: 16 14.7%
  • SCOTUS will pick it up and decline to overturn

    Votes: 37 33.9%

  • Total voters
    109
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It doesn't have to. The exceptions are for both the life AND the health of the mother.



It doesn't have to. Risk alone suffices. It must be a significant risk, a minuscule one won't suffice, but it does not need to be certain.

Irrelevant. Patients will die. It will happen because of these laws. The reason this is not a qualified statement is because I do not mean it to be a qualified statement. It is a certainty that patients will die because of this.

See the NPR story that I & another forum member have posted & multiply it a thousandfold. Some of those patients will die unnecessarily.
 
Some people here have been consistently wrong about what these laws actually say. First, there were supposedly no exceptions in the Alabama law. But it turns out there were. Then there was supposedly no definition of what constituted a "serious health risk to the unborn child's mother". Except it turns out there was a definition.

What the law says is actually very important. You're just butt hurt because people keep correctly pointing out that it's being misrepresented. And that's somehow the fault of the people who actually get it right.

Nonsense. The Republicans don't respect laws, least of all the ones they write.

They don't deserve the benefit of the doubt anymore. This is a group that can't be told "Don't storm the Capital and commit a coup."
 
Another thing that our Republican Apologists have forgotten we've already shown them is that abortion laws don't actually make abortions go down so every argument they make is a lie. Every single one.

Abortions have been dropping like a rock since Roe V. Wade. That's one of those "facts" that the Republicans hate so much and pretend isn't true.

Safe, legal, convenient access to abortions is one of the best ways to get less of them.
 
Nonsense. The Republicans don't respect laws, least of all the ones they write.

They don't deserve the benefit of the doubt anymore. This is a group that can't be told "Don't storm the Capital and commit a coup."

This is just a fancier way of saying, "la la la, I'm not listening!" Apparently your hatred runs so deep that facts don't matter to you anymore.

They still matter to other people, though.
 
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Irrelevant.

It's extremely relevant.

Patients will die.

Conversely, babies will live.

I think the number who die matters quite a lot. I do not think the numbers will be large, which is much better than a situation in which the numbers are large. This is not the first, or the last, government policy which may lead to some deaths.

See the NPR story that I & another forum member have posted & multiply it a thousandfold. Some of those patients will die unnecessarily.

The Mississippi law seems to require an immediate threat, but the Alabama law does not. I think the Alabama approach is a lot better than the Mississippi approach. I suspect that you could probably get Mississippi to change their law to something closer to Alabama, but when this passed, Democrats were probably focused on just opposing it, not modifying it. Perhaps they will now.
 
The Mississippi law seems to require an immediate threat, but the Alabama law does not. I think the Alabama approach is a lot better than the Mississippi approach. I suspect that you could probably get Mississippi to change their law to something closer to Alabama, but when this passed, Democrats were probably focused on just opposing it, not modifying it. Perhaps they will now.
Ah yes. Let's triangulate. That's the ticket!
 
If a perfectly spherical pregnant woman is crossing the international dateline in the Yosemite Triangle of Death during a solar eclipse on the day we roll the clocks back over an infinite plane of uniform gravity in a frictionless vacuum after the player with the puck has crossed the blue line on a Power Play but it's Wednesday...
 
That is incorrect, it does define that. There's a whole section starting on page 6 which specifically does this. Furthermore, if you read how the statute defines abortion itself (starting on page 5), terminating an ectopic pregnancy is specifically NOT counted as an abortion at all.
You are incorrect. the only specifically described condition pertaining to risk to the mother is ectopic pregnancy.

The part that applies to any other condition is vague:
(4) MEDICAL EMERGENCY. A condition which, in13reasonable medical judgment, so complicates the medical14condition of the pregnant woman that her pregnancy must be15terminated to avoid a serious health risk as defined in this16act.

Serious health risk being:
(6) SERIOUS HEALTH RISK TO THE UNBORN CHILD'S21MOTHER. In reasonable medical judgment, the child's mother has22a condition that so complicates her medical condition that it23necessitates the termination of her pregnancy to avert her24death or to avert serious risk of substantial physical25impairment of a major bodily function. This term does not26include a condition based on a claim that the woman is27suffering from an emotional condition or a mental illnessPage 6

1which will cause her to engage in conduct that intends to2result in her death or the death of her unborn child. However,3the condition may exist if a second physician who is licensed4in Alabama as a psychiatrist, with a minimum of three years of5clinical experience, examines the woman and documents that the6woman has a diagnosed serious mental illness and because of7it, there is reasonable medical judgment that she will engage8in conduct that could result in her death or the death of her9unborn child. If the mental health diagnosis and likelihood of10conduct is confirmed as provided in this act, and it is11determined that a termination of her pregnancy is medically12necessary to avoid the conduct, the termination may be13performed and shall be only performed by a physician licensed14in Alabama in a hospital as defined in the Alabama15Administrative Code and to which he or she has admitting16privileges


There is an exception for suicide risk, but it requires a licensed psychiatrist to evaluate the patient and provide a diagnosis that such a risk exists. It does not suffice for the patient to merely claim a risk.

The judgment call for suicide risk is lumped in with the judgment call on serious health risk.

In both cases, they purport to defer to doctor's judgment, but require the assent of a second doctor. But it's not even that. The terminology used is "medical emergency," which implies a level of acute immediacy. Not all things fall into that category.

My daughter has a heart condition. I don't know if it's enough that pregnancy would be a risk, but if a doctor were to say there was a risk, it would be better to make a decision and take action early, before it becomes a "medical emergency." Waiting until a condition becomes acute is dangerous, and bad medicine. And, in my opinion, the state has no right to force anyone to take additional unnecessary risks.

And some groups think there should be no exceptions:
https://www.prolifewi.org/can-there-be-exceptions
 
Look closely. "Health" of the mother is an exception the anti-abortion crowd opposes because it is vague. Could it mean discomfort? Hospitalization? Mental illness?

In the case of Alabama, which was linked above, it is in fact defined, and answered for every one of your questions above. Mississippi is more vague, but "discomfort" does not qualify.
 
Like with all Republicans every accusation you make is just a confession.

And yet, I'm the one who keeps referring to the actual facts (like the text of the law). You actually objected to me doing so.

You have become a parody of yourself.
 
Another thing that our Republican Apologists have forgotten we've already shown them is that abortion laws don't actually make abortions go down so every argument they make is a lie. Every single one.

Abortions have been dropping like a rock since Roe V. Wade. That's one of those "facts" that the Republicans hate so much and pretend isn't true.

Safe, legal, convenient access to abortions is one of the best ways to get less of them.

I haven't looked up the statistics, but I think I either read or heard on NPR that while abortion rates did go up after Roe (maybe because numbers could then be collected?), they have since declined to levels lower than they were pre-Roe.
 
Well at least I think women should be treated like people and not broodmares for the state so you know what... I think I'll sleep fine tonight.

For some reason this got me thinking of geldings....
Maybe instead of state laws regulating what women can do with their bodies, we should have state laws requiring men do do certain things to ours.

Mandatory vasectomies at the age of 14. Why not? Unlike pregnancy (apparently) these are safe and reversible.

Though for reversal, you might require consent of one's wife (or maybe three women, not blood related?) and a certificate of financial soundness from one's banker or accountant.

This would eliminate a lot more abortions than these laws would, I think.
 
*Shrugs* I'd do it. Snip me and freeze some sperm if I ever need it for anything.

But even beyond the abortion debate there's way too much stupid macho male ego wrapped up in "fertility" as a concept. Too many chest puffing big pickup drivers who would feel like less of a man for shooting blanks.

But this is getting a little in the weeds, even for this debate and I'm not a massive fan of the whole "hardy hardy make men get vasectomies see how they like it" thing, even jokingly or hypothetically. Again "Men' are not the enemy here as demographic show.
 
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You are incorrect. the only specifically described condition pertaining to risk to the mother is ectopic pregnancy.

This is a subtle point and may seem like a technicality, but it's an example of not reading the law closely. Ectopic pregnancy doesn't even fall under risk to the mother's health. It is its own specific exception. Terminating an ectopic pregnancy isn't considered an abortion at all under the law, and so requirements for abortions do not even apply.

But it's not even that. The terminology used is "medical emergency," which implies a level of acute immediacy. Not all things fall into that category.

Again, you have not read closely enough, and in this case it's really not a technicality. There is no requirement for a medical emergency under Alabama law. The only relevance in the Alabama law is that in the case of a medical emergency, you don't need a second doctor to confirm medical necessity.

My daughter has a heart condition. I don't know if it's enough that pregnancy would be a risk, but if a doctor were to say there was a risk, it would be better to make a decision and take action early, before it becomes a "medical emergency."

I agree. Alabama law explicitly permits this. Mississippi law does not. I think it should. I think it wouldn't be that hard to get that changed.

And some groups think there should be no exceptions:

And some groups think that you should be able to "abort" even after the baby is delivered. We need not go to either extreme.
 
I haven't looked up the statistics, but I think I either read or heard on NPR that while abortion rates did go up after Roe (maybe because numbers could then be collected?), they have since declined to levels lower than they were pre-Roe.

There was a graph on an NPR page linked earlier. I have some criticisms of that page (outlined in an earlier post), but I have no reason to doubt the graph itself.
 
Well at least I think women should be treated like people and not broodmares for the state so you know what... I think I'll sleep fine tonight.

Nobody cares how you sleep. What's relevant here is how you participate in discussions. And you contribute nothing of value here. You have not provided one relevant fact, one logical argument, one bit of insight.
 
I keep wondering what Montesquieu would think of all this. However, not many people are all that concerned with what Montesquieu would think. I can't blame them. The more pragmatic issues do tend to dominate. So, I can't get upset that people aren't all that concerned about issues about the theory of government. It's a pity, because it's actually very important, but there's only so much you can expect from people who have only a limited amount of time or interest to devote to musings concerning law and policy. It does upset me, somewhat, that people insist that not only do they not care about those concerns, but that nobody cares about those concerns. It's insulting to be informed that you don't really exist, or that you are obviously lying when you express concerns. It's something I have to live with, though.

Be that as it may, rightly or wrongly, the abortion debate is about to be thrust back into the legislative sphere, and that means the electoral sphere.

When that happens, suddenly public opinion becomes important. There are large swathes of people whose mind is firmly made up on this issue, and are unpersuadable. Far more important are the ones that either have no opinion or are soft in their support or their opposition to abortion rights. They might express an opinion, but they haven't really thought about it much, in part because, until that Supreme Court opinion hits the streets, the matter is mostly decided. Their thoughts weren't all that important, because the law that made abortions legal wasn't a law at all for most people. It was a judicial decree. Now, though, their influence on future law will be more direct.

I have to wonder what effect the inflammatory rhetoric and, I will say, paranoid fantasies about slippery slopes will have on voters. When people say that Republicans are trying to stop interracial marriage, how will those people who are lukewarm supporters react? In other words, there are people out there who might generally be anti-abortion, but really haven't given it much thought, and are perhaps open minded on the subject. When they hear the screeching about Republicans wanting to turn women into brood mares, forced pregnancies, bans on condoms, or whatever else, will they say, "Gee. I don't want that. I should vote for legislators who support abortion." Or will they say, "Give it a rest you morons. That's crap." and dig in their heels and harden their anti-abortion positions just because they are mad at the ridiculous rhetoric.

I'm sure it will surprise none of you that I think the latter is more likely. I think the inflammatory rhetoric is ok to get the base all fired up, but I think it is mostly unpersuasive, or even counter-persuasive.

There is another group of people even more important in that calculus, and probably more numerous. I think there are a lot of people whose abortion positions don't align with their party platform. In particular, there are people who are pro-choice, but it isn't their most important issue. They might be more concerned about other conservative issues than they are about their pro-choice stance. How will the "Loving v. Virginia" rhetoric play with those people? Again, I think it's likely that what it will do will be to reinforce all the reasons that they oppose Democrats in general, and make it more likely that, even with Roe v. Wade gone, and aboritons actually illegal, they still will vote for Republicans, even though those Republicans are overwhelmingly anti-abortion.

In general, I think the best way to persuade is to drop the hyperbole, and focus on the reality. That stands a good chance of winning, even it it's not as much fun.
 
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