The Roe Countdown

[cosmicaug]

Sure. So you are saying that a congress with a Democratic majority should attempt to impeach Supreme Court justices on the grounds that.....I think you'll have to fill me in here....because Congress can't impose their will on states where the local majority is against the will of the national majority.

Which states are these where majorities do not support keeping Roe vs. Wade?

 

[JoeMorgue]

Okay. You're a hypothetical woman that lives in.... Miami. Florida, Georgia, and South Carolina definitely are going to outlaw abortion. You have to go to goddamn North Carolina, across half the Eastern Seaboard to get medical care?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Which states are these where majorities do not support keeping Roe vs. Wade?

I would bet money were there will be at least 1 state that criminalizes abortion by overriding a veto from a governor. Governors are one of the few offices that get elected by a real popular vote, but you see there are a few "red" states that are only red because they have been gerrymandered to absurdity.

The minority controlled state legislature will override a governor, who was actually popularly elected, in order to criminalize abortion. I have very little doubt this will happen.

 

[Myriad]

Again at the end of the day the people who want to use "the system" to make things worse will keep banging on about some slavish devotion to said system that magically doesn't exist when the system doesn't get them what they want.

Watching Republicans decide what morals they do and don't have depending on what they want at the moment would be funny if A) the Democrats had any way of countering it and B) it wasn't doing so much damage to the country.

Nobody actually believes that a single Republican thinks abortion is a "states rights" issue and it's insulting we keep getting told we have to act like they do to maintain the civility theater.

But states' rights is the theater where the effects will play out, if overturning Roe leads to enactment of a Federal abortion ban. Some states will pass medical privacy laws and other non-cooperation policies, with the intention of making it impossible, or as difficult as possible, for any national ban to be enforced. Immigrant rights and legalized marijuana have been test beds for such policies.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I don't see any evidence of that belief. I see no attempts to push through any amendments that might improve the constitution (probably because they can't get the public on their side).

Instead, they, like the right, are happy to simply stack the SC with judges that will "rule" they way they want. The problem is that the right beat them at this game.

It's not a ******* game.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Okay. You're a hypothetical woman that lives in.... Miami. Florida, Georgia, and South Carolina definitely are going to outlaw abortion. You have to go to goddamn North Carolina, across half the Eastern Seaboard to get medical care?

It'll be an undignified inconvenience for many for sure. There will also be a smaller minority of pregnant people who can't afford the travel who have to either go through an unwanted pregnancy or illegally get a dodgy abortion where they are.

Another small minority that suffer serious medical harm because doctors can't act appropriately to miscarriage or other pregnancy related problems because they brush too close to abortion. People will die because their doomed pregnancies aren't aborted, we know this from experience in other anti-abortion countries. Good luck getting a D&C for a dead or dying fetus in these Christian authoritarian states.

Another small minority that are imprisoned for miscarriages that are perceived (rightly or wrongly) to be intentional.

 

[Meadmaker]

Impeachment for being totally out of step with the public's understanding of basic civil rights seems like a perfectly valid use of the legislative oversight function.

I could quibble on several points, but I won't.

The bottom line, though, is the votes aren't there. I don't think it's wise to impeach if you can be certain there is not going to be a conviction. I vaguely recall saying that two other times in recent history.

 

[JoeMorgue]

This is also why the Democrats absolutely ignoring their massive losses at the state level was such a huge deal.

"Down Ballot" losses have been the time bomb the Republicans have been planting for years now. In the last decade the Democrats have been getting slaughtered at the State Legislatures.

Republicans own 30 out of 50 state legislatures. Democrats own 17. (Two are split and Nebraska's is... weird.) That's a huge deal. It makes the Federal Government where all the theater happens almost beside the point.

 

[Meadmaker]

Which states are these where majorities do not support keeping Roe vs. Wade?

This case came from Mississippi, so it seems like there might be one.

And if your point is that even in Mississippi, the majority actually supports abortion rights, well that just proves my point. Get the voters of Mississippi to put their votes where their mouth is, and elect pro-choice legislators.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I could quibble on several points, but I won't.

The bottom line, though, is the votes aren't there. I don't think it's wise to impeach if you can be certain there is not going to be a conviction. I vaguely recall saying that two other times in recent history.

Of course. I'm saying the Democrats should run on this explicit promise, instead of whatever vague nothing statements they're likely to try.

The anti-abortion movement shows exactly how to make this happen. It doesn't happen fast in a single election, but you keep your party disciplined by purging squishes on the issue, you groom the necessary administrative agents to fill the needed positions, and you keep the promise alive until you're finally in a position to deliver. There were countless reaffirmations and purity tests of the Republicans through the years to keep this project vibrant, even when it seemed totally out of reach.

Overturning Roe was a multi-decade project, but the right kept on it until it got done. Libs will have to show similar tenacity and hold their political leadership's feet to the fire until it gets done.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Nobody is buying the "No you see I don't want to ban abortion but my hands are just tied by the political system" sthick.

People in Mississippi didn't outlaws slavery in their state constitution until 2013. Then didn't get to keep slaves until then.

Sometimes states are wrong and the Federal government gets to tell them so and make them comply.

 

[cosmicaug]

This case came from Mississippi, so it seems like there might be one.

And if your point is that even in Mississippi, the majority actually supports abortion rights, well that just proves my point. Get the voters of Mississippi to put their votes where their mouth is, and elect pro-choice legislators.

All the SCOTUS is saying is that it's the will of the people in the states & that we should govern by that;... but if it's not the will of the people in the states, it just proves your point?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Could you quote some specific statements?

I think without that, the most obvious strategy for them is to never explicitly say they what they would do with Roe vs Wade.

See Fast Eddie's post.

What do you think "established law" and "established precedent" means?

Now ask yourself what it meant without the hindsight that they didn't intend to keep said "established law?

In addition, it is an "established precedent" not to answer the Roe question directly. All of the justices avoid the direct question including the liberal justices. That doesn't change what the Zealot-5 meant to say by saying "established law" and "established precedent". They meant to deceive.

 

[Meadmaker]

All the SCOTUS is saying is that it's the will of the people in the states & that we should govern by that;... but if it's not the will of the people in the states, it just proves your point?

Those people have to express their will at the ballot box.

I don't know what they want, but they have elected representatives. They need to elect people that represent their values.


Here in Michigan, it seems we have a pre-Roe law that outlaws abortion, and that might spring back to life when the opinion hits the lawbooks.

We also have ballot initiatives. I think what will happen is that there will be a ballot initiative to make abortion legal, and it will pass. That's always risky. Things can go wrong in the process, but that's democracy.


I remain firmly committed to democracy. If you want government to do something, then vote. That's the way to effect change.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Meadmaker doesn't seem to understand that Republicans keep making voters less and less important in elections.

 

[JoeMorgue]

We're getting closer and closer to "Why didn't the slaves just vote themselves out of slavery? I mean surely a Civil War was unnecessary" level.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The Democrats could argue that this decision is an impeachable offense and that all these justices perjured themselves during their confirmations, but that would require them to actually want to fix this problem.

It would require them to have the votes in the Senate.

... ETA: There's also things they could do right now. They should abandon the "blue slip" process for appointing district judges and ram pro-Roe judges into all the vacant seats in red states, rather than honoring the informal veto these conservatives have been using to keep them vacant.

This I agree with.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

We're getting closer and closer to "Why didn't the slaves just vote themselves out of slavery? I mean surely a Civil War was unnecessary" level.

To be fair, Haiti essentially did this and the West never forgave them.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Court Expansion, followed by Packing is a much better idea than trying to impeach judges.
Factual Term Limits are an even better idea, as it disincentivizes putting babies like Amy on the Court.

If we get enough Senators in the mid-terms, it's time to add justices. I believe term limits would require a Constitutional amendment unlike the number of justices on the court.

I'd also like DC to get statehood. "Tough turtles Mitch, you started it." We don't have equal representation. That would be one partial fix.

 

[Resume]

If we get enough Senators in the mid-terms, it's time to add justices. I believe term limits would require a Constitutional amendment unlike the number of justices on the court.

I'd also like DC to get statehood. "Tough turtles Mitch, you started it." We don't have equal representation. That would be one partial fix.

How do you picture that happening? I'm not being smart-ass.