Hello Soapy Sam
Hello Geoff- sorry I arrived late again. I can't possibly catch up on the whole thread, so I'm just looking at page 1 for now. This tends to correct for topic drift anyway.
"real"? How the property "real" be applied to a statement? Are you trying to say "true?"
No. First, obviously and in a very banal sense, any statement, once made, is real. It exists. Before it is stated it may exist in potentia, though possibly not in all languages- but what I mean here is that the statement, as defined by the users actually maps onto reality. It is a linguistic descriptor of what actually happens. "Truth" or "falsehood", with all their associated philosophical baggage, need not be invoked here.
(Interesting how the word "true" has changed usage. In the past one might have described a description or a map as "true" where now we would say "accurate" . )
Yes. Statements aren't real or non-real. They are either true or not true with respect to their own language game.
See above. If we see a statement as a map, model or analogue of an object or event, the statement which accurately models that event is a descriptor of reality. It is real. "Accurate" if you prefer. The implication is that it is accurate to a known tolerance.
Given that the statement exists at all, it is also real in the more banal sense. Language does not exist apart from reality. It is part of reality.
I mean there are certain types of discourse which share a set of underlying assumptions which are understood as shared by all the people using that language game.
Of which shared grammar and vocabulary are most important to the use of language. They are wholly unimportant to what they describe, except that they give a real description, or they do not. There are many tricks we can play with language. Sometimes we do so deliberately,for amusement or to mislead; sometimes through misunderstanding. (Zeno's paradoxes for example). The system has inbuilt limits.
Confusing a linguistic system with the events it is describing is to entirely misunderstand what language is.
I'm not playing a game. I am certainly trying to analyse how language might cause philosophical problems if used in a poorly-thought-out way.
The word "game" was yours. You defined truth in terms of word games. I find that both silly and immoral. Language used badly causes all manner of problems, but they are uniformly problems of communication. This is why we keep asking for definitions and examples. Language either gives a real model of events or it does not. The only way to know is by constant cross reference to observations of reality and by constant checks that we are all singing from the same song sheet.
Never confuse reality with description of reality. The latter is part of the former. You stated in response to me in a previous thread that without language we have no communication. It is too vital a tool to misuse. A wrench should not be used as a hammer. To start a debate by saying you believe truth to be a construct of language is to effectively shoot yourself in the head. Why would anyone take anything you say seriously after a statement like that?
As for Absolute Truth? That's best left for the more religious amongst us.
Is Absolute Truth different from truth? If so, how? $10 - $10 =$0
This statement, within the framework of our language and arithmetic, is universally true, here, now, on Alpha Centauri and in the Vatican. It's not a matter of definition, but a matter of observation. The definition describes the fact.
Science is not absolute truth. Science is quite good at exposing claims from other language games which are false, but this does not give it any right to claim absolute truth itself.
You dropped the capitals. I repeat- is absolute truth the same as Absolute Truth and are they identical to truth? In what way does the adjective "absolute" (capitalised or not) qualify the noun?
I never heard of any scientist claiming absolute anything. Maybe some do.
Some scientists are devout Muslims, others are baseball fans. Nowt as queer as folk.
Science is common sense , with notes. Nothing magic about it.
Science claims to give real statements accurately describing reality. Those statements have built in errors in the sense of measurement. Tolerances.
We know the value of anything to given tolerances. That is the best we can do, because it appears to be the best the universe can do.
There is a grain in matter and energy and possibly also in spacetime. We are flirting with Planck and QM here- a statement about reality tested to incredibly fine tolerances. Any pretence that debate on the nature of language can improve on those tolerances strikes me as naive.