The relationship between science and materialism

So, religious people are not fully conscious? :P

Yes, very funny. :rolleyes:

Would it be correct to say that there exist as many physical (phenomenal) worlds as there exist observers?

I suppose it would, yes. That might seem a bit wierd for humans, because we think of ourselves as sharing the same world but think of the phenomenal world of a bat. That's certainly not the same as ours and there's no reason to believe that all humans have the same experience of reality - in fact there is good reason to believe this is not the case e.g. colour-blindness.
 
So,basically everything that a neurologist does to assess "state of consciousness" is simply inflicting a torture chamber on someone in a coma?

I don't know what you do to assess their state of consciousness, but it doesn't sound very nice so far.

They are conscious. We can check in many people that the pathways for audition, somatosensation, and vision are completely intact from receptor to cortex, though they do not respond.

What is the difference between this state and motor neuron disease? People with MND "do not respond" - at least not much. But they are certainly conscious.

It sounds to me from your description that the people you are talking about are experiencing something like a dream.

So by this rubric, they see, hear, and feel and are conscious of it, correct?

You see, hear, feel and are conscious during a lucid dream. Correct any of this if it is wrong: During normal REM, the same parts of the brain are active as during waking perception but the "thresholds are lower" (or something like that) so the activity is less intense, accounting for the relative "dimness" of normal dreams compared to veridical perception. During lucid dreams we are still "disconnected from the physical world" (the experiences are "wild", like dreams) but the level of activity in the brain is the same as being fully awake. The result is that lucid dreams are "bright", like veridical perception.

So in your coma patients, is the brain state closer to that during REM or that during lucid dreaming and full-waking states?
 
Merc

Exactly. In fact I will remember this example and use it in the future. :)
Be sure to cite me. I have used it on this forum many times.
Yep. Otherwise I'd have to claim my mind didn't exist and that would be stupid.
because...?

You do not have to claim that the illusion of mind does not exist. The strawman argument against eliminative materialism is that they deny even what appears to be mind (and Watson did come close to that, in truth); you have limited your choices by essentially stereotyping them.
Logic forced me to accept that. Either that or eliminativism. That was the choice. I chose neutral monism. Eliminative materialism is ridiculous. Idealism is a reaction to eliminative materialism. Neutral monism makes sense to me.
You are giving far too much weight to the assumption of your mind's existence as it appears to you. (Strange, given your claim that you are not assuming anything.) It is this assumption that is forcing you, not logic. Logic does not support your circular assumption any more than it supported the assumption of a god to keep everything running. You seem very certain that you found the correct way to enter your circle, while your conclusion, if correct, would mean that you cannot possibly know this.
 
Be sure to cite me. I have used it on this forum many times.
because...?

You do not have to claim that the illusion of mind does not exist. The strawman argument against eliminative materialism is that they deny even what appears to be mind (and Watson did come close to that, in truth); you have limited your choices by essentially stereotyping them.
You are giving far too much weight to the assumption of your mind's existence as it appears to you. (Strange, given your claim that you are not assuming anything.) It is this assumption that is forcing you, not logic. Logic does not support your circular assumption any more than it supported the assumption of a god to keep everything running. You seem very certain that you found the correct way to enter your circle, while your conclusion, if correct, would mean that you cannot possibly know this.

Merc,

I've already said that eliminative materialism is both logically coherent and impossible to refute empirically. I'm also perfectly fine with people who wish to take Kant's position and claim the noumenal world is unknowable. I have no gripe with people who defend either of those positions.

Geoff
 
I don't know what you do to assess their state of consciousness, but it doesn't sound very nice so far.

No nice at all. In the UK one of the favorites is nipple twisting. In the States we usually just apply intense nailbed pressure. The point is to inflict pain to see some form of response for diagnostic and predictive purposes.

What is the difference between this state and motor neuron disease? People with MND "do not respond" - at least not much. But they are certainly conscious.

In no way, shape, or form even close. Motor neuron diseases, in their various forms, affect motor output only. The brain is left relatively unaffected (in ALS there is some evidence of a mild dementing process in some people) so the EEG remains completely normal. We see normal wake-sleep cycles and normal background rhythms when they are awake. There are also certain nerves not affected by the process so we can continue communicating with people.

It sounds to me from your description that the people you are talking about are experiencing something like a dream.

Nope. Nothing like a dream state. We know what dream states look like on an EEG -- clear correlations. This is nothing like that. The only similarity is with spindle coma and that is not like a sleep state either.

You see, hear, feel and are conscious during a lucid dream.

Using proper clinical terms lucind dreaming is a hallucination. It is internally generated, but seeing, hearing, and feeling certainly occur.

During normal REM, the same parts of the brain are active as during waking perception but the "thresholds are lower" (or something like that) so the activity is less intense, accounting for the relative "dimness" of normal dreams compared to veridical perception.

Not completely correct. We see a very superficially similar pattern on the EEG during REM sleep. The areas of the brain that are activated are largely in the visual cortex. One of the very interesting aspects of dreaming is that smells and tastes are rarely (but sometimes) reported.

If thresholds were lower, then the activity would be more intense, but that is just a technical use of the terms and not important for the discussion. The real difference is that the experience is possibly muted to a certain extent for very unclear reasons (we don't really know since we must rely on reports through memory) and the sense of it all is very strange and certainly not organized along daily waking rules. We are also paralyzed during the whole thing.

During lucid dreams we are still "disconnected from the physical world" (the experiences are "wild", like dreams) but the level of activity in the brain is the same as being fully awake.

Based on what evidence? Where is the cut-off for a lucid rather than a "normal" dream? There are dream states that actually begin in the waking state. Are you referring to those?

So in your coma patients, is the brain state closer to that during REM or that during lucid dreaming and full-waking states?

It's not in any way like any of those. If you go on the EEG evidence it is wholly other.
 
Wasp,

No nice at all. In the UK one of the favorites is nipple twisting. In the States we usually just apply intense nailbed pressure. The point is to inflict pain to see some form of response for diagnostic and predictive purposes.

I would also be concerned by this.

Using proper clinical terms lucind dreaming is a hallucination.

Using proper philosophical terms it is also an hallucination. Similar to the brain in the vat employed during the argument from hallucination against direct realism.

The real difference is that the experience is possibly muted to a certain extent for very unclear reasons....

Those reasons are relevant to me. I would like to understand more about why normal REM is phenomenologically different to hallucination/lucid dreaming.

Based on what evidence?

I found this on a website about lucid dreaming which I just tried to re-locate but failed. If I manage to find it I will let you know.

Where is the cut-off for a lucid rather than a "normal" dream? There are dream states that actually begin in the waking state. Are you referring to those?

I have lucid dreams which don't start from the waking state.

It's not in any way like any of those. If you go on the EEG evidence it is wholly other.

Then there is probably consciousness, but the content is "wholly other". It's another state. Not awake. Not dreaming. Something else, but something rather than nothing.

Wasp.....surely your own position prior to talking to me would have led to the same conclusion anyway....? Wouldn't it? Or were/are you in two minds about it?
 
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I have lucid dreams which don't start from the waking state.

Could you be talking about daydreams?

Then there is probably consciousness, but the content is "wholly other". It's another state. Not awake. Not dreaming. Something else, but something rather than nothing.

I had a debate on another forum, where I questioned the state of meditation. Could you be talking about that then?
 
have you reached any conclusiomns after all this time?
:D :jaw-dropp
Everyone needs to believe in something.
I believe i`ll have another beer.
 
This thread seems to have veered off somewhere "wholly other".

Killess

Could you be talking about daydreams?

No. Lucid dreams aren't daydreams.

I had a debate on another forum, where I questioned the state of meditation. Could you be talking about that then?

No. Coma victims aren't much like Buddhist monks. At least I don't think so.

:D

Geoff
 
Wasp,

What is reported by people emerging from comas about what, if anything, they experienced whilst in the coma?

I realise we dream all the time and usually don't remember it.

Geoff
 
I have lucid dreams which don't start from the waking state.

Don't be so sure of that. You don't normally have an EEG running when you are asleep, so your awareness or unawareness of the state you are in as you develop these types of dreams is not available to you directly. We know that many lucid dream reports from sleep studies are directly tied to emergence from or entry into the waking state.

Then there is probably consciousness, but the content is "wholly other". It's another state. Not awake. Not dreaming. Something else, but something rather than nothing.

I don't think many would argue "nothing". I think most would argue "not conscious". It hinges critically on what we call "conscious". They don't seem to have any experience during the time they are in that state. The only folks who can report any experiences or who have any sense of any passing of time are those who are no longer in coma -- they seem to recall bits and pieces of the state when they emerge from consciousness.

So, let's try another example -- people under general anaesthesia. We have lots of experience with them. Are they conscious? I spend much of my time looking at either their EEGs or the evoked potentials -- both of which demonstrate ongoing brain activity during surgical procedures. We can't tell if anything goes wrong if they don't have any brain activity.

If they don't actually wake up during the procedure (unfortunately it happens), they have no experience during the time of anaesthesia. No time passing, nothing. If they are conscious, how is that possible?
 
I realise we dream all the time and usually don't remember it.

There is a good reason for that based on what dreams are used for and the primary structures involved. Yes, this is all theory.

The significant difference between dream states and coma/anaesthesia hinges on the experience and the experience of time passing regardless of whether or not we recall the content of a dream.
 
Geoff said:
Why does something have to be seperated in space in order to be seperated? I think this might be a hangover from the physicalist way of thinking about things. Think about, say, the concept of the difference branches of the multiverse in MWI. I'm not saying MWI is true, but you have there an example of things which are seperate but not seperated by physical space. So experiences are seperate in a similar sort of way.
In the MWI, things are in separate spaces altogether. But I'm not suggesting experiences are separated in space, because they are in the Neutral, which has no spatio-temporal aspects. Yet they have to be differentiated in some fashion, and Being just doesn't seem like the sort of place for this to be.

Because then all you have is a noumenal brain. No minds. No matter. Being had to be added to make enough theoretical space in the neutral system to account for both mind and matter in the phenomenal world. If you try to remove Being from the picture then you take away that theoretical space and we are left back with the problem of explaining how to get rid of the dualism.

Put simply: Take Being out of the neutral picture and the reduction doesn't work any more.
Sorry, I don't understand. Since I have absolutely no notion how the Being interacts with the Neutral to produce experience, I can't tell what happens when Being is removed from the picture.

We have already said that mental and physical things can be grounded in something with no mental and physical attributes. Why should time be any different?
I don't suppose it should. In fact, no matter what sort of attribute you need in the mental/physical, you can just say it appears through the magical interaction of Being and Neutral. It's just a bit too glib.

How do you act ON a component of your experiences?

Action by what?

I'm not sure I understand the question.
When I kick a rock, what am I doing to the noumenal rock?

~~ Paul
 
Geoff said:
They [Being and Neutral] aren't. They are ontologically distinct. They have different properties. They are only "the same" in so much as they both appear on the noumenal side of the description of reality and not the phenomenal side.
How is this not neutral dualism, then?

It's not really a problem - i.e. it's not a logical problem. But there certainly are questions to be asked about how the Zero interacts with the neutral entity. Unfortunately any attempt to describe this "interaction" in detail will require a discussion of quantum mechanics. That's why Penrose is interested in neurons. I can propose at least one way this could work, and it would come from Bohm. The trouble is if I start talking about Bohm and QM this thread will turn into the standard JREF thread about QM. We can do it if you like though.....
What does QM have to do with anything? QM is just a model we've developed to describe the physical. There is no QM in the noumenal.

The information is encoded somewhere in the noumenal correlate of your brain.
How does poking the physical "image" of my brain evoke noumenal memories?

~~ Paul
 
Merc,

I've already said that eliminative materialism is both logically coherent and impossible to refute empirically. I'm also perfectly fine with people who wish to take Kant's position and claim the noumenal world is unknowable. I have no gripe with people who defend either of those positions.

Geoff
Ok, um...my own position is neither of those; I thought I was asking for you to support your own idea, not supporting these notions myself. I see you constructing a framework in the absence of any evidence or logical support (other than circular), and being happy that it lets you act in ways indistinguishable from dualism.

Don't get me wrong--I am very happy to have someone actually speak coherently in support of such a position (I am more accustomed to Iacchus. Nuff sed). I just don't find it supportable.
 
JustGiraffe, I was wondering. How does this super world actually explain anything? This world that IS our experience, why is it needed? What is it exactly that allows us to experience, and if it is a "something", why can't you make the same argument against it not actually being our "experience" that you make against the brain? It seems to me you get an infinite recursion. If that's needed to explain how we can experience reality as opposed to just being machines, then doesn't that itself need something to explain how it experiences reality?
 
Geoff,

Im in the same position as Mercutio. It is refreshing to see someone defending such a view with brains, in clear contrast with people like Ian (not that he doesnt try) or other pintoresque characters.

That said, I believe that no matter how plausible (or not) your ideas actually are, we live in a world that its constituted by "intersubjective mental structures", and I have learned that none of us can really claim they are completely wrong "per se" (this of course would leave us with the only one "true reality", or something like that). Yes, some worldviews will stand against some logical analysis, but in the end I believe we all are completely lost.

(only without words and concepts we can grasp somethings, but thats another subject)

Dont get me wrong, I consider myself an Advaitin, and my worldview is very close to what you have depicted. So close that I have restrained myself to make more coments (because Im still working in my own proposal).
 
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JustGiraffe, I was wondering. How does this super world actually explain anything? This world that IS our experience, why is it needed? What is it exactly that allows us to experience, and if it is a "something", why can't you make the same argument against it not actually being our "experience" that you make against the brain? It seems to me you get an infinite recursion. If that's needed to explain how we can experience reality as opposed to just being machines, then doesn't that itself need something to explain how it experiences reality?

I dont believe that it needs to "explain" anything, its more or less logically consistent, and thats good. Oh, hold on, I guess Geoff needs to answer ;)
 
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I don't believe that it needs to "explain" anything, its more or less logically consistent, and thats good. Oh, hold on, I guess Geoff needs to answer ;)

If it can't explain anything or make predictions that we can check and so on then I would say it is a fiction, and I don't mean that in any particular disparaging way however it does mean it is nothing more then a type of faith-story.

If we argue in the same way Geoff has done to support his "neutral monism" then we can construct a faith story that is also more or less "logically consistent" that "proves" the Christian God exists. (The simplest example I can think of is the "perfect being" argument.)


______________

Geoff I'm glad you did eventually describe your worldview, (especially since I said to you that would be a more productive approach). I'm slightly disappointed since it turned out to be as I suspected i.e. nothing particular new and another faith-story however it was an interesting discussion so thanks.
 

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