The reason I love grammar

my_wan said:
This looks wrong to me;
http://www.informatics.sussex.ac.uk/department/docs/punctuation/node16.html


My intuition says, "Several friends have provided me with inspiration: Tim, Ian, and above all, Larry."
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Well, I have my opinion, but I'll just wait for confirmation bias...:D

Oh, okay, since I'd rather continue avoiding the work that I have to do: I agree my_wan, I prefer your version. But there are a couple of schools of thought that would lead one to the version quoted. First, there's the "no-comma-before-the-"and"-in-a-list" thinking, that would lead one to leave the comma out before the and. Then there's the "above all"-is-a-parenthetical-remark (there's a term for it, but I'm currently exhausted and over-caffienated, so my brain isn't entirely functioning) that would require it to be separated by commas.

However, I think the way you've written it looks better, and doesn't hinder understanding, whereas the way the example is worded sort of causes one to stumble when trying to parse the sentence. In the end, I'm a strong proponent of using punctuation to facilitiate understanding, and anything that is counter to that is wrong, I don't care how many rules say it's right.
 
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Thanks HawaiiBigSis.
I always use a comma before the "and" in a list. When I read a sentence without it I have to do a double take to be sure if it was really a list or a relationship between sets. Compare "Tim, Ian, and Larry went to see a movie." and "Forgetting Tim, Ian and Larry went to see a movie." I also tend to avoid commas before a connector word, unless what follows is an exception to the statement. To my thinking connector words are themselves a logical pause. My exception rule may occasionally lead to a list of exceptions.

I have used my standard rules in this post. They are here to be nit picked for the slightest infraction of rules or lack of clarity.
 
My intuition says, "Several friends have provided me with inspiration: Tim, Ian, and above all, Larry."
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I disagree my-wan, although I understand your intuition. As HawaiiBigSis said "above all" is a parenthetical remark. Using the rule that you should be able to remove anything between two commas and still have a sentence that reads correctly:

"Several friends have provided me with inspiration: Tim, Ian and, above all, Larry."

Becomes:

"Several friends have provided me with inspiration: Tim, Ian and Larry."


Whereas

"Several friends have provided me with inspiration: Tim, Ian, and above all, Larry."

Becomes:

"Several friends have provided me with inspiration: Tim, Ian, Larry."

Which doesn't really read properly (at least to me).

A comma before every "and" doesn't seem necessary, unless it's separating completely separate ideas (clauses?), since, as you say, the joining word is a pause in itself. Putting a comma before "and" in a list (the Oxford comma) seems unecessary to me but it can help to make things clearer e.g., "Comedy legends Cooper, Izzard, and Morcambe and Wise."

What really bugs me is the habit of newspaper headline writers to completely replace an "and" with a comma. It seems to be more common in the USA than the UK, but I have seen it here once or twice. A trivial example from the onion is:

"Affluent White Man Enjoys, Causes The Blues"

What?! Where's the "and", it's just so ugly and it doesn't flow that my brain simply cannot read something like that without rebelling.
 
my_wan said:
Thanks HawaiiBigSis.
I always use a comma before the "and" in a list. When I read a sentence without it I have to do a double take to be sure if it was really a list or a relationship between sets. Compare "Tim, Ian, and Larry went to see a movie." and "Forgetting Tim, Ian and Larry went to see a movie." I also tend to avoid commas before a connector word, unless what follows is an exception to the statement. To my thinking connector words are themselves a logical pause. My exception rule may occasionally lead to a list of exceptions.

I have used my standard rules in this post. They are here to be nit picked for the slightest infraction of rules or lack of clarity.
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This is called the "Oxford comma." I use it too; I think it looks classier. :)
 
flimflam_machine, You are applying the rules of bracketing commas to listing comma. I've been studying this a little.
Here's what the punctuation site says;
Note also that it is not usual in British usage to put a listing comma before the word and or or itself (though American usage regularly puts one there). So, in British usage, it is not usual to write

The Three Musketeers were Athos, Porthos, and Aramis.

This is reasonable, since the listing comma is a substitute for the word and, not an addition to it. However, you should put a comma in this position if doing so would make your meaning clearer:

My favourite opera composers are Verdi, Puccini, Mozart, and Gilbert and Sullivan.

Here the comma before and shows clearly that Gilbert and Sullivan worked together. If you omit the comma, the result might be confusing:

*My favourite opera composers are Verdi, Puccini, Mozart and Gilbert and Sullivan.
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That is a more complex example of the one I give where the comma is used to denote set ownership. Personally, when missing, it always forces my eyes to backtrack the sentence to be sure if it was a member of a list or an exception to the list.

Another example of rule changes between types is the gapping comma should not connect complete sentences, whereas listing commas do.

Given that my preference does not explicitly break any rules in the UK or the US, and makes comprehension easier on myself and some others, I will continue with it.

Thanks for the input.
 
my_wan said:
flimflam_machine, You are applying the rules of bracketing commas to listing comma.
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No, he's applying the rules correctly. "Above all," isn't an element in the list but a paranthetical remark about an element. The commas before and after "above all" are bracketing commas.

Here the elements of the list are printed in green, the single listing comma also in green, the Oxford comma in blue and the bracketing commas and paranthethical remark in red:

"Several friends have provided me with inspiration: Tim, Ian, and, above all, Larry."
 
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Grammar can be fun or it can just raise pointless debate ;)

Now, can we argue about split infinitives?
 
Not an argument. It was a question I asked about my lack of knowledge and how I used it. I considered what I could find and decided my approach was ok within the rules. Flimflam was not in any way wrong about usage and got my thanks for the input.

Thanks again.
 
Thanks for clarifying Leif Roar, that's exactly what I meant. The colour-coding didn't occur to me.

My_wan, I think your pattern of commas does make intuitive sense, since they are where you would put the pauses if you were saying it out loud. However, if you accept the rules in the link (which is entirely up to you) then the bolded comma in this (your) form

"Several friends have provided me with inspiration: Tim, Ian, and above all, Larry."

has no real job. It's not a listing comma so I'd say it has to be a bracketing comma in combination with the previous one. This would potentially reduce the sentence to

"Several friends have provided me with inspiration: Tim, Ian Larry."

This doesn't read well to me, but that is just my opinion and, as I said, your original version reads well when you read it out loud.

I reckon that Oxford commas are ugly and unecessary except in the type of lists given as examples by my_wan and me. Perhaps that's just because I have Cambridge sympathies!
 
I've got another questions, regarding quotation marks.

When and why do English/American people use the inverted comma ' or a quotation " mark?

Example:

Where have you found this "new" species?

or

Where have you found this 'new' species?

Does it make any difference whether you use the " or ' mark? I've seen both, but it seems that the " implies irony in some cases in English. Nope? Just curious, because you can't use the ' in my first language for a quote, but I've seen it many times in english posts.
 
Wahrheit, personally I use quotation marks when using the same characterization used by someone else that I can quote directly, from the person I'm debating or a reference used. I use the inverted comma when I am quoting an implicit assumption that I can't directly attribute to any individual statement. Sometimes it can be nothing more than a commonly accepted implicit assumption.

I can't claim this is in any way proper or standard but that's the conditions I use.
 
According to what I've learned (and practiced), the single quotation mark is only used when quoting a quote. That is something like:
She asked, "When did you say 'I don't know that woman'?"
​
I believe that in British usage, the double-quote and single-quote usage is exactly reversed, but I'm not positive about that.

Otherwise, I don't know of any common American usage for the single quote marks.
 
My "English Grammar Workbook for Dummies" has the following examples on double and single quotes and commas combined:

"I hate the term 'frozen rope,'" said Sharon.

"When Sharon started talking about 'a frozen rope,' I cheared," said Harry.

The book also indicates that in Britain it is the other way around: single quotes go outside, and double quotes go inside.
 
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rsaavedra said:
My "English Grammar Workbook for Dummies" has the following examples on double and single quotes and commas combined:

"I hate the term 'frozen rope,'" said Sharon.

"When Sharon started talking about 'a frozen rope,' I cheared," said Harry.

The book also indicates that in Britain it is the other way around: single quotes go outside, and double quotes go inside.
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Irony
Another important use of quotation marks is to indicate or call attention to ironic or apologetic words. Ironic quotation marks can also be called scare, sneer, shock, or distance quotes. Ironic quotation marks are sometimes gestured in oral speech using air quotes:
My brother claimed he was too “busy” to help me.
Quotation marks indicating ironic use of a term should be used with care. Without the intonational cues of speech, they can obscure the writer’s intended meaning. They can also be confused easily with direct quotations, so some style guides specify single quotation marks for this usage, and double quotation marks for verbatim speech.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotation_mark#Irony
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This is the way I would distinguish between "quotation marks" and 'irony marks' ('irony marks' a kind of substute for writing alleged, but I have occasionally been accused of attributing a quotation to somebody when I was actually trying to demonstrate irony or distance.
 
flimflam_machine said:
I disagree my-wan, although I understand your intuition. As HawaiiBigSis said "above all" is a parenthetical remark. Using the rule that you should be able to remove anything between two commas and still have a sentence that reads correctly:

"Several friends have provided me with inspiration: Tim, Ian and, above all, Larry."

Becomes:

"Several friends have provided me with inspiration: Tim, Ian and Larry."


Whereas

"Several friends have provided me with inspiration: Tim, Ian, and above all, Larry."

Becomes:

"Several friends have provided me with inspiration: Tim, Ian, Larry."

Which doesn't really read properly (at least to me).

A comma before every "and" doesn't seem necessary, unless it's separating completely separate ideas (clauses?), since, as you say, the joining word is a pause in itself. Putting a comma before "and" in a list (the Oxford comma) seems unecessary to me but it can help to make things clearer e.g., "Comedy legends Cooper, Izzard, and Morcambe and Wise."

What really bugs me is the habit of newspaper headline writers to completely replace an "and" with a comma. It seems to be more common in the USA than the UK, but I have seen it here once or twice. A trivial example from the onion is:

"Affluent White Man Enjoys, Causes The Blues"

What?! Where's the "and", it's just so ugly and it doesn't flow that my brain simply cannot read something like that without rebelling.
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Could you not use, "Tim; Ian; and, above all, Larry."
 
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