The Rape of Men

[sylvan8798]

Newsweek had an article earlier this year about rape of men in the military:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2011/04/03/the-military-s-secret-shame.html

It had never occurred to me that such a problem existed. You always hear so much about how they're all "brothers". I guess maybe some of that is a little propaganda?

 

[bookitty]

"Stop violence against women," gained so much momentum because there are women's groups scanning media for any instance of promoting or accepting violence against women and calling it out. There simply needs to be more attention called to the complete and total acceptance of violence against men. Yeah, gangsta rap does appear to be promoting violence against women, but it's riddled with violence against men and I rarely hear anyone calling this out. A man says something really stupid in a TV program or a movie and the woman reacts by slapping him; she's justified because she's angry. A man slaps a woman for the same reason and he is an abuser. A woman is attempting to seduce a man and he says, "No, stop," ten times before the act is finished and he's a bad guy for cheating on his partner. A woman says, "No, stop," once before the act is complete and it is unquestionably rape.

Perpetuating gender roles creates harmful environments. For men it means that they are expected to deal with and even welcome violence. If they are victimized they are expected to either suck it up or go for vengeance - two courses of action that have no proven psychological benefit.

Gender roles also play a big part in the zero-sum approach mention in the article. If men can "deal with it," diverting a percentage of already limited resources to help them is unnecessary. If you don't have enough to go around, give it to those who need it most. Take away the gender roles and the woman in the article has no argument.

Deciding that one group receives all of the assistance because they are the majority of victims simply doesn't make sense. Victims of savage crimes need help and medical assistance. In a perfect world this would be easy to address. In the Congo and Uganda, where it is already very difficult to help female victims of rape and to keep them safe while they are recovering, it will be much more difficult. If a group is formed from within, it can be funded from the west but forming that group will expose male victims to further trauma and may put their life in danger.

 

[Wildy]

I wouldn't take literary and movie tropes as an indication of what a society considers ok.

I don't know. Pop culture does reflect societal norms and values so I would say that in some cases it would be an indication of what a society considers ok.

Often the comedic effect is precisely because it's a reversal of expectations, i.e., oversimplifying it: because it's not ok.

But do you know of any instance where a woman is raped for comedic effect?

I would elaborate, but I don't feel like it. Article's gone, everyone seems to feel as I do.

Except for "roxythekiller" in the comment thread of that article.

Newsweek had an article earlier this year about rape of men in the military:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2011/04/03/the-military-s-secret-shame.html

It had never occurred to me that such a problem existed. You always hear so much about how they're all "brothers". I guess maybe some of that is a little propaganda?

Actually that very notion probably helps to protect the rapist since the victim is basically expected to tough it out

 

[ponderingturtle]

But do you know of any instance where a woman is raped for comedic effect?

See the movie yellowbeard. That includes a pirate defining an act as rape and the woman defining it as a cuddle. Also he rapes another woman after escaping from prison.

I would look at non comedies and at things like domestic abuse for better examples of the double standard.

 

[Ferguson]

See the movie yellowbeard. That includes a pirate defining an act as rape and the woman defining it as a cuddle. Also he rapes another woman after escaping from prison.

I wouldn't say there's much comparison though. A movie I've never heard of from almost 30 years ago apparently makes a joke of a woman being raped. While woman-on-man and man-on-man rape is a common "gag" in TV, movies, stand-up, etc.
However we may think society at large view it, in pop-culture it's clear: man being raped = funny. Woman being raped = heinous, and often the set-up for a punisher/straw dog style revenge fest.

 

[HansMustermann]

I don't know. Pop culture does reflect societal norms and values so I would say that in some cases it would be an indication of what a society considers ok.

Careful examination of the pop culture, its role, audience and reactions could probably tell you a few things about a society. Flipping through a list of comedy tropes, however, doesn't.

Not the least because most comedy works by incongruity and resolution, which is to say, SOMETHING there must be different from the normal. Situations which play out exactly as would be normal and expected IRL are invariably not funny.

And especially for genres like dark humour or gallows humour, the thing that makes it funny IS that it's something horrible, It doesn't mean we take it to be ok. The fact that it's about something horrible is what makes gallows humour work.

Also not the least because, if you've read the list of tropes, you've probably noticed that:

A) it includes mutually exclusive stuff, and

B) a trope being subverted in a movie also counts as the same trope.

But generally, things that work in movies don't work that way IRL. For example, in the context of this thread, the most obvious example is the Rape Is Love trope, which nevertheless doesn't mean that any society in history actually took that to be a generally acceptable way to declare one's love. It's something that only really works in fantasy-land.

But do you know of any instance where a woman is raped for comedic effect?

Are you kidding? There is a whole rape joke genre. E.g., (and may the mods have mercy on my soul for it, but, hey, you asked)

Two nuns are taking a shortcut through the woods and are jumped on by some bandits who start raping them. "Forgive them Lord, for they know not what they do," says one nun.
"Nah, " says the other, "mine does."​

Or,

"Yesterday I saved a lady from a rape..."
"Oh, that's wonderful of you! How did you do that?"
"Well, I just persuaded her."​

And a few more, but, hey, I should cut it out, I'm probably coming across as a bigger a-hole than on goatse already

Then there's web-comics. Just off the top of my head, I can think of at least three strips about rape on Sexy Losers, including a tentacle rape episode, and one parody of a cooking show that was actually about how to get a girl laid by getting her "marinated", i.e., drunk to the point of being barely conscious. Or on the somewhat less funny side, there's this: http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=128

Again, I better stop and leave it at two examples.

Or from movies, while it did get toned down lately because of feminists getting offended (*melodramatically shakes a fist at the feminists*), we have such examples as Revenge Of The Nerds where it's apparently zany hilarity to pretend to be someone else while wearing a Helloween mask to score sex with someone who thinks you're someone else.

ETA: plus, if you're taking your information about culture from TV Tropes, shouldn't you also notice the Rape Is Ok When It's Female On Female trope too? And especially if you look over the other side of the globe to Japan, there's a whole genre of using, yes, rape of a female as comedy material or as hot sexy stuff, especially by another female.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I wouldn't say there's much comparison though. A movie I've never heard of from almost 30 years ago apparently makes a joke of a woman being raped. While woman-on-man and man-on-man rape is a common "gag" in TV, movies, stand-up, etc.
However we may think society at large view it, in pop-culture it's clear: man being raped = funny. Woman being raped = heinous, and often the set-up for a punisher/straw dog style revenge fest.

Why bother citing movies look at the news. See the case if the Russian woman who held a burglar captive as a sex slave for several days. Reverse the sexes and no one would joke about it.

 

[sylvan8798]

But do you know of any instance where a woman is raped for comedic effect?

I think it used to be more common in literature. The Sot-Weed Factor, for example, but that was published in 1960.

 

[Sabrina]

Newsweek had an article earlier this year about rape of men in the military:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2011/04/03/the-military-s-secret-shame.html

It had never occurred to me that such a problem existed. You always hear so much about how they're all "brothers". I guess maybe some of that is a little propaganda?

"brothers" they may be (although the more appropriate term may be "siblings", since women are in the military too), but they're just as human as anyone else. Being in the military doesn't preclude doing monstrous acts, more's the pity.

I don't know about other services, but the Army has been making a concerted effort to show that they condone a male being raped as much as they condone a female being raped; that is to say, not at all. Every quarter we have POSH training (Prevention of Sexual Harassment), and the examples of activities the Army will not condone now include examples of men being raped, both by women and men. Only one I recall is a male soldier being propositioned by his female CO though. I think part of the problem is the mindset many have; men are supposed to be stoic and not admit to vulnerabilities, and let's face it; admitting to rape is about as vulnerable as it gets. Thankfully the Army has procedures in place to mitigate the response the soldier receives, as they have the option of remaining anonymous unless and until they decide whether they want to bring charges. Bottom line; that article shows an attitude that is going away in the military, to the best of my estimation; rape of any sort is not condoned, and if your immediate chain of command isn't doing anything about it (or is the problem as in the example I gave above), then there are programs run outside of the units that can help the soldier. It's not ideal yet, but it's getting there.

 

[sylvan8798]

Sabrina, do you think the end of DADT will help? It seems to me like some men would be hesitant to come forward for fear that their being gay would be discovered in the process. Maybe trying to fly under the radar and not get themselves noticed.

 

[sputnik]

Personally I would have no problem with being raped, so long as the female has no STD's and doesn't end up pregnant that is. Oh, and she is quite tidy too ... fantasies aside...

I imagine this thread is focusing on male-on-male rape. That I really do have a problem with. I remember what an ex-girlfriend of mine, who was repeatedly raped by her step-father from the age of 4 until she started her periods at 11, said to me - "It must be much worse for boys, as the paedo takes away their masculinity".

It struck me, as I always thought child rape was worse for girls, but now I agree with her, boys have it much worse.

 

[Drachasor]

Personally I would have no problem with being raped, so long as the female has no STD's and doesn't end up pregnant that is. Oh, and she is quite tidy too ... fantasies aside...

Since by definition rape is something you DO mind, the above wouldn't be rape.

 

[Morrigan]

Personally I would have no problem with being raped, so long as the female has no STD's and doesn't end up pregnant that is. Oh, and she is quite tidy too ... fantasies aside...

What Drachasor said.

It struck me, as I always thought child rape was worse for girls, but now I agree with her, boys have it much worse.

What is this I don't even

 

[tesscaline]

Since by definition rape is something you DO mind, the above wouldn't be rape.

I see you are unfamiliar with "non-consent fantasies". They're quite common, really. However, you would be right that they are not "sexual assault" as being described in this thread.

 

[tesscaline]

I imagine this thread is focusing on male-on-male rape. That I really do have a problem with. I remember what an ex-girlfriend of mine, who was repeatedly raped by her step-father from the age of 4 until she started her periods at 11, said to me - "It must be much worse for boys, as the paedo takes away their masculinity".

It struck me, as I always thought child rape was worse for girls, but now I agree with her, boys have it much worse.

This strikes me more as latent homophobia on her part than as anything worth listening to.

Having sex with a man does not make someone less of a man, whether that sex is by force or with consent.

In fact, this view that having sex with a man makes a man less of a man is part of the reason why it is so difficult for men to admit to having been raped by another man. By perpetuating the idea that sexual assault is "worse" for one gender or another because it robs them of their gender identity, you're actually making it harder for the issue of sexual assault to be discussed openly and honestly by those who have been subjected to it.

As if being assaulted isn't traumatic enough, you have to make it about their gender identity too? Bleh. I know you were attempting to be supportive, but, that's really just as bad as your original position.

 

[ponderingturtle]

This strikes me more as latent homophobia on her part than as anything worth listening to.

Having sex with a man does not make someone less of a man, whether that sex is by force or with consent.

In fact, this view that having sex with a man makes a man less of a man is part of the reason why it is so difficult for men to admit to having been raped by another man. By perpetuating the idea that sexual assault is "worse" for one gender or another because it robs them of their gender identity, you're actually making it harder for the issue of sexual assault to be discussed openly and honestly by those who have been subjected to it.

Which is very much in context as the article I posted talks about men having their wives leave because they are no longer viewed as men. It is a pervasive form of sexism that sees little discussion. But by shaping soceities views and the victims views of themselves it could make it worse on average for one sex over the other.

 

[Drachasor]

I see you are unfamiliar with "non-consent fantasies". They're quite common, really. However, you would be right that they are not "sexual assault" as being described in this thread.

One consents to "non-consent" fantasies, and there are limits to them.

Granted there might be fringe cases where the dominate person is not aware of the consent, but that is rightly viewed as not remotely safe by the BDSM community. That's why there are safe words and such.

This strikes me more as latent homophobia on her part than as anything worth listening to.

Having sex with a man does not make someone less of a man, whether that sex is by force or with consent.

Of course, it is an absurd view. That said, unrealistic views of masculinity and femininity are common.

Basically this is a cultural-specific problem, that can be solved by changing our culture. Easier said then done.

 

[sputnik]

This strikes me more as latent homophobia on her part than as anything worth listening to.

Having sex with a man does not make someone less of a man, whether that sex is by force or with consent.

In fact, this view that having sex with a man makes a man less of a man is part of the reason why it is so difficult for men to admit to having been raped by another man. By perpetuating the idea that sexual assault is "worse" for one gender or another because it robs them of their gender identity, you're actually making it harder for the issue of sexual assault to be discussed openly and honestly by those who have been subjected to it.

As if being assaulted isn't traumatic enough, you have to make it about their gender identity too? Bleh. I know you were attempting to be supportive, but, that's really just as bad as your original position.

All your talk about sex with a MAN is missing the entire point - I was talking about children. It is pretty obvious that the paedophile rapes a male child by sodomy, and in my ex-girlfriends case, by vaginal intercourse.

For some reason he stopped when she started menstruation. Sick *********** twat I would strangle him to death if I had my way, but she considered her terrible childhood as less worse than a young boy in the typical Catholic Church mainstream.

Calling her a latent homophobe is the most obnoxious thing ever. That is precisely the last thing she was.

 

[Drachasor]

less worse than a young boy in the typical Catholic Church mainstream.

Let's be fair to the Catholics, there's no evidence to suggest that sort of thing is "typical" despite the problems the Catholic Church has had.

 

[tesscaline]

All your talk about sex with a MAN is missing the entire point - I was talking about children. It is pretty obvious that the paedophile rapes a male child by sodomy, and in my ex-girlfriends case, by vaginal intercourse.

No, it's not missing the point. Plenty of female children are raped by anal penetration. What does that have to do with "taking someone's masculinity"? Nothing, that's what.

For some reason he stopped when she started menstruation. Sick *********** twat I would strangle him to death if I had my way, but she considered her terrible childhood as less worse than a young boy in the typical Catholic Church mainstream.

Yes, what happened to her sucked. And yes, what happens to little boys who are abused sucks too. But saying that what happens to little boys is worse because it "takes away their masculinity", when a little girl being abused doesn't take away their femininity.. That's sexist, and smacks of discriminatory views against males who have sex with males (be it consensual or otherwise).

Let me ask you. WHY do you think being abused takes away a boy's masculinity, but being abused does not take away a woman's femininity? Hm? Is it because males can't be masculine if they're being penetrated? Yes. And why is that? Is it because only gays get penetrated? Yes again. And why does that mean that males who get penetrated can't be masculine? Oh, right, because gay men aren't really men, they're wimpy, pansy, wanna-be women (examples guys -- I do NOT think this).

Maybe you never stopped to think about it, but that's the whole reason why it's "emasculating" to be anally penetrated. Because of homophobic nonsense like I just put out there as an example.

Tell me again how her statement that a boy being abused emasculates him isn't sexist and homophobic. Go ahead.

Calling her a latent homophobe is the most obnoxious thing ever. That is precisely the last thing she was.

Obnoxious? For calling it as her statement makes it out? Do you have any idea how insulting what she said is? Do you have any idea how insulting it is that you're defending it?

I'm sorry she suffered. She's not alone in having been abused in such a manner. But it doesn't excuse such offensive and downright belittling statements on her part, or yours, since you agree with her.