The Race Paradigm

The idea of race has been scientifically discredited. Trait clusters exist (EG epicanthic folds and lanky black hair among east Asians; dark brown skin and higher levels of testosterone among persons of African descent. etc.) but these groupings of characteristics are too vague and non-universal to be useful or practical. And besides, the idea of race as it tends to be used today involves far more than mere physiology.
Very skeptical about the testosterone thing.

My immediate questions were and remain: Why are "white" persons only allowed to dress up on Halloween as members of their own so-called race?
I've had the same thoughts. "Your skin is your uniform" is not a civil rights slogan.
I don't see any problem in distinguishing between harmless dressing up and disseminating racism.

On topic Mitchell and Webb sketch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6cpU_iIqLs
 
Yes, and identifying unequal income distribution with 'proportionally more poor individuals of one race than another' is just more racism.

Why should skin color be singled out, when so many other factors may affect a person's income? If it's due to their forebears being enslaved and treated as subhuman for hundreds of years, then they are suffering from the results of racism. Ditto if their 'culture' is to blame, since it grew out of the same circumstances. Another possibility is that having dark skin makes you dumb and lazy...
That's a good point. One should remember that blacks were discriminated against by law and not just by racist sentiment well into the 1960ies. Government sanctioned crimes against black americans are more recent than the holocaust.
Of course, when parents did not receive a good education that is a problem for children who won't pick up knowledge just by "osmosis", aren't surrounded by books and so on...

I think racism as an issue merely serves to obscure that issue. The USA have a black president but he is not a slave descendant. Clearly the US have done a great job overcoming racism but very little in the way of adressing historical injustice.
 
Some people's ancestors historically oppressed, ridiculed, dehumanized, slaughtered and enslaved other people's ancestors. My own ancestors had all of this done to them, and were heinously treated to the point of near genocide. None of the people who committed those crimes are alive anymore, and I don't hold their descendants responsible. I understand we live in a world in which people are still discriminated against for their perceived affiliation with others due to trait clusters such as skin color, and that is precisely the problem I propose we work to eliminate. Hough was "oblivious" of the offense she unintentionally caused, in part because for the generation to which she belongs, race is far less divisive than it is for those of older generations. I like that attitude and suggest, like Morgan Freeman, that we all try to adopt it.

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How about, instead of trying to convince me that I shouldn't be offended by some white wealthy person putting on blackface, you go talk to the college students we see year in and year out, putting on blackface as an act of obvious and aggressive racism - and who will swear up and down that there's no racism in them.

More importantly, how do you end racism by making blackface acceptable? Seems to me, back when blackface *was* widely popular, that state-sponsored terrorism against the people it mocked was *also* popular.
 
I have a dream... a dream that someday black people will dress up in whiteface for parties. :boxedin:

I mean, after all, fair's fair and turnabout is fair play. :)
 
I have a dream... a dream that someday black people will dress up in whiteface for parties. :boxedin:

I mean, after all, fair's fair and turnabout is fair play. :)

First, 400 years of slave ships sailing white people to their masters. Then turnabout is fair play.
 
First, 400 years of slave ships sailing white people to their masters. Then turnabout is fair play.

It should generate some interesting headlines when the slave ships start arriving at Jamestown to pick up a live cargo.
 
How about, instead of trying to convince me that I shouldn't be offended by some white wealthy person putting on blackface, you go talk to the college students we see year in and year out, putting on blackface as an act of obvious and aggressive racism - and who will swear up and down that there's no racism in them.
What would that achieve?

More importantly, how do you end racism by making blackface acceptable?
Has anyone suggested that it would?

OP's point, the way I understand it, is that the social taboo of crossing "race lines" is racist in itself.

Seems to me, back when blackface *was* widely popular, that state-sponsored terrorism against the people it mocked was *also* popular.
State-sponsored terrorism was "popular" in the former slave holding US states and in South Africa. Blackface was also popular in other places such as the Uk, at least.
Are you seriously suggesting some sort of causal link?
 
I understand what you're saying and I'm aware of the arguments put forth against it, but I disagree that applying dark-skinned make-up for a Halloween costume should remain a social taboo in 2013 because it evokes an entertainment performed (at its height) 150 years ago in which African-Americans were ridiculed.

Its height may have been 150 years ago, but it was still ongoing in the 1960s. Later than that in other countries (here in the UK, there was a weekly televised minstrel show until 1978). As recently as 2002 Robertson's jam had a gollywog as their mascot.

It's not an issue as prevalent in today's society as it once was, but it's not a dead issue, either.

Hough did not dress up as the "Orange" character to ridicule or oppress her, but because she admired the character. You're welcome to disagree, but it's part of my campaign, which begins right here and right now, to stop pretending that race exists. It doesn't.

I'm not disagreeing about Hough's motives. In the post you quoted I explicitly said that I didn't think she meant any harm. But not meaning harm by doing something doesn't divorce it from its wider sociological context.

As for the rest of it, I don't think that race is a particularly useful descriptor. To be honest, I can't think of a single time when I've ever used it as a descriptor for someone. I may have described someone by the colour of their skin or referred to the region in which they live but I can't think of any time in which I've used race itself, nor why I would really need to.

But that doesn't mean that blackface doesn't have wider sociological implications. Sorry, but it doesn't.

Think of it this way, maybe - the swastika has, throughout history, been a symbol of peace and love. In many cultures and religions it still is to this day. But if you wear a t-shirt with one on you shouldn't act surprised if some people think you're sending out a different message than you intend to.
 
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Very skeptical about the testosterone thing.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3455741

"Mean testosterone levels in blacks were 19% higher than in whites, and free testosterone levels were 21% higher. Both these differences were statistically significant. Adjustment by analysis of covariance for time of sampling, age, weight, alcohol use, cigarette smoking, and use of prescription drugs somewhat reduced the differences. After these adjustments were made, blacks had a 15% higher testosterone level and a 13% higher free testosterone level. A 15% difference in circulating testosterone levels could readily explain a twofold difference in prostate cancer risk."

15% higher testosterone on average is no small matter. Keep in mind also that the study tested African-Americans (who have on average about 15% Caucasian DNA admixture.) This would seem to strongly indicate that actual Africans in Africa would have an even larger testosterone "advantage" as compared to whites.

The article points out that this readily explains a higher risk of prostate cancer. What political correctness prevents most people from pointing out is that it also probably goes a long way toward helping explain observed differences in crime rates and incarceration rates, especially when considered alongside other studies which have shown the so called warrior gene (which makes carriers display higher levels of aggression in response to provocation) exists in a much higher percentage of the African-American population than in whites. One study showed it in as high as 14% of blacks, the other showed it in 4.7% but both studies showed it in less than 1% of white men, putting even the 4.7% figure at nearly a 10 fold difference.

Whether people want to use the word "race" or not at some point they are going to have to come to grips with the fact that our species is not immune to natural selection pressures and that when different populations of our species are separated in dramatically different environments for tens of thousands of years that it has an impact.

A tropical hominid species cannot migrate north into ice age Eurasia and undergo undeniable, well established changes in skin tone, hair consistency, bone shape, skull shape, etc and somehow magically have their brains and behavioral tendencies remain identical. We aren't special snowflakes of nature who have a "get out of natural selection free" card because otherwise our feelings might be hurt.

Our brains and hormone levels and behavioral tendencies on average are just as up for grabs as those of any other species or sub-species. Ice age Eurasia was a very different environment to Africa where our species started out. Being the only group which didn't interbreed with neanderthals and denisovans has to have had it's impacts too.

I find the changes in testosterone and the MAOA gene to be very unsurprising. I can easily see how an ice age, winter-bearing environment might select for greater impulse control, lower aggression, longer time horizon etc. Even in the course of one human lifetime we can see a small example, in the well known fact that crime rates go up in warmer months.

Back before we'd invented electric heaters and insulation and advanced structures, and keeping the fire going might mean the difference between life and death, I could easily see how the more impulsive, more violent, and less cooperative Eurasians might lose a great deal of their market share in those gene pools.
 
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...[The] groupings of characteristics [which we call "races"] are too vague and non-universal to be useful or practical. And besides, the idea of race as it tends to be used today involves far more than mere physiology.

The concept of race depends on a multiplicity of affiliated factors, such as anatomy, culture, ethnicity, genetics, geography, history, language, religion, and social relationships. But these overlap among all populations, to the point of rendering the idea of race wholly inaccurate, especially today when there is so much global interaction....​

To address your specific points, the notion of species does not involve any of the hilited factors beyond the anatomical and genetic.
You appear to have forgotten behavior.
 
Behavior isn't a racial trait in humans. It's a learned trait.

Hormonal differences lead to behavioral differences (there's really no way they couldn't do so) and a significant testosterone gap has already been established in this thread between at least two "races" or genetic clusters or whatever people would prefer to call them.

Twin studies have also shown remarkable similarities in personal behavior, personality traits, preferences, life trajectory, etc in identical twins separated at birth.

Genetics loom very large in all aspects of who we are and what we can achieve. The American Psychological Institute puts IQ heritability at 75% and again, IQ has huge impacts on behavior.

So while behavior may not be a racial trait, as you say, it is most certainly not entirely a learned trait either. It's partially learned, partially genetic and I personally would wager that genetics play a much larger role than anyone currently cares to entertain. Genetics even impact the learning element because you're usually learning your behavior from others with your same genetics (parents, siblings) more than from anyone else. It's impossible to disentangle the role of environment and genetics because they each impact the other and react to one another.

Genes are not evenly distributed among all racial groups and much as it may horrify people, genes which influence behaviors society considers positive may be found more frequently in some groups than others, and the same with ones which increase what we consider negative, anti-social behaviors. Nature doesn't care about our feelings.
 
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Thanks but that study can't really be used to support the claim.

For one, testosterone levels are subject to environmental factors. Since the idea in OP's post is that these differences are based on genetics it would be necessary to rule that out somehow. From the abstract it doesn't look like this was done.
The bigger problem is that you cannot draw conclusions from Afro-american college students about Africans in general. The admixture you mention being only one problem here. Another problem is the variability among Africans.


Let's give an example. You could say that blacks are more likely to have sickle cell anemia. That is true but really hides the truth.
Sickle cell anemia appears to be an adaption to the risk of contracting malaria. It is highly prevalent in certain regions of Africa but virtually absent in others.

Humanity has adapted to regional environmental factors and it is exactly those adaptions which make the popular concept of "race" biologically nonsensical.

You could insist on using the term race in vague manner, much like the term population but, personally, I think the term needs to be given up, like the term "psychic".
If, however, you were to insist on the term then one would have to acknowledge that there is a unique american race of slave descendants that is different from any african race. It is different because it is a unique mixture drawn from various west african and european populations.

15% higher testosterone on average is no small matter. Keep in mind also that the study tested African-Americans (who have on average about 15% Caucasian DNA admixture.) This would seem to strongly indicate that actual Africans in Africa would have an even larger testosterone "advantage" as compared to whites.
I don't see how this follows. After all, it could be precisely the admixture of european DNA that causes the higher levels when combined with african DNA.
Also note that testosterone levels are one thing, sensitivity to those levels another.
 
For one, testosterone levels are subject to environmental factors. Since the idea in OP's post is that these differences are based on genetics it would be necessary to rule that out somehow. From the abstract it doesn't look like this was done.

It looks like they ruled out some factors:

"Mean testosterone levels in blacks were 19% higher than in whites, and free testosterone levels were 21% higher. Both these differences were statistically significant. Adjustment by analysis of covariance for time of sampling, age, weight, alcohol use, cigarette smoking, and use of prescription drugs somewhat reduced the differences. After these adjustments were made, blacks had a 15% higher testosterone level and a 13% higher free testosterone level."

What would the other main environmental factors be, that might make a difference?
 
It looks like they ruled out some factors:

"Mean testosterone levels in blacks were 19% higher than in whites, and free testosterone levels were 21% higher. Both these differences were statistically significant. Adjustment by analysis of covariance for time of sampling, age, weight, alcohol use, cigarette smoking, and use of prescription drugs somewhat reduced the differences. After these adjustments were made, blacks had a 15% higher testosterone level and a 13% higher free testosterone level."

What would the other main environmental factors be, that might make a difference?
Parent{s} and peers.
 
It looks like they ruled out some factors:

"Mean testosterone levels in blacks were 19% higher than in whites, and free testosterone levels were 21% higher. Both these differences were statistically significant. Adjustment by analysis of covariance for time of sampling, age, weight, alcohol use, cigarette smoking, and use of prescription drugs somewhat reduced the differences. After these adjustments were made, blacks had a 15% higher testosterone level and a 13% higher free testosterone level."
Well, they tried to take into account those factors. Testosterone level varies over the course of the day, being highest in the morning. However, with artificial lighting throwing our circadian clocks off, I wouldn't be so sure that simple statistics can really account for systematic differences in daily routine.
Also, alcohol, cigarette and drug use is probably self reported. At least, I'd be surprised if the testing had been that thorough.

What would the other main environmental factors be, that might make a difference?

There are a variety of factors which have been alleged to influence testosterone levels. Exposure to sunlight/vitamin D, exercise, winning/losing (even vicariously), fatherhood...
I don't know to what a degree that research is reliable.

It does seem to be a robust findings that non-western populations have lower testosterone levels.
Going by this study that is largely because of the high levels among young adults.
 

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