frisian said:
Why wouldn't men be able to form groups and call themselves feminists?
Indeed. And some men do just that. And there are feminist groupts that welcome men, making it a mixed sex pro-female group. (thought how many I am not sure, but the college campus always has a bunch of the guys hanging out with the feminist groups... except that one where the women claim men can't be feminists because they don't have a vagina. However, blocking off about 50% of the population that they are trying to reform is a silly idea, IMO.)
MoeFaux
Suspicious Mind
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2003
- Messages
- 5,275
Suez PMed me letting me know she started this thread, since some people know I've got a bit of a nut religious background. (thanks, Suez, BTW).
I don't have a lot of facts on the PKs. I know a bit of what they're about from hearing people I knew in the church talking about how "wonderful" they were, I've read their press, however, I've never been to one of their events.
My father, though, was a big PKs fan and went to several events, and he's a total dou*he, so there you go. It's religious whackjobs sitting around stroking each others c***s (oh, oops, I meant to say egos) and talking about how to "be in charge" of their families, while hiding behind "god". Real f***ing great.
I think they're all cowards, using the bible as an excuse the make women submit, among other things.
My official statement? "Promise Keepers can suck my ****".
I don't have a lot of facts on the PKs. I know a bit of what they're about from hearing people I knew in the church talking about how "wonderful" they were, I've read their press, however, I've never been to one of their events.
My father, though, was a big PKs fan and went to several events, and he's a total dou*he, so there you go. It's religious whackjobs sitting around stroking each others c***s (oh, oops, I meant to say egos) and talking about how to "be in charge" of their families, while hiding behind "god". Real f***ing great.
I think they're all cowards, using the bible as an excuse the make women submit, among other things.
My official statement? "Promise Keepers can suck my ****".
Suezoled said:
Yes, if there's no evidence that this is any different than any number of christian organizations. I think a large majority of them do follow Paul's direction in Ephesians:
Sorry for the long scriptural quote, but I thought I'd put it in a context, rather than just quote the part about "wives, submit yourselves." The other part is, (paraphrasing) "Husbands, SERVE. Serve so that your wife is loved. Nourish and cherish your family as Christ nourished and cared for the Church. Love your wife AS yourself." Not below yourself.
Notice that the group is called Promise Keepers. Not Authority Asserters, or whatever. It is men who are called upon to engage themselves in family life.
To quote Billy Graham (I can't believe I'm doing this)
This is what I'm talking about. If there was a member of Promise Keepers here, he'd probably say this by way of explaination. It's about self-sacrifice, not domination.
Gee, I don't know. Why don't you ask Women of Faith?
http://www.womenoffaith.com/
Or maybe even better, you go ask them why they are so anti-men that they bar them from their conferences?
Hey, welcome to organized religion!
Listen religious groups usually are full of people who hold more old-fashioned gender roles. So what? This is hardly news.
But Promise-keepers isn't "slap your bitch around, and tell her to obey."
Yeah, they're a right-wing christian organization, with an emphasis on traditional gender roles. Unless you have a husband who's a Promise-keeper, that impacts your life how, exactly?
MoeFaux said:
And religion ISN'T condescending?
Listen, if you want to get together and we'll have a "Religion is full of stupid ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊" club, I'd be happy to be sargeant at arms. I think it's all bogus and mostly dangerous.
I'm just saying that, well, just having a bible retreat meeting where men talk about male gender roles and issues (even within a theological framework), doesn't get an automatic "this is sexist" response from me.
I think there is an anti-male sexism in feminist circles. I am proud to call myself a feminist male. But at the same time, I can, and will decry the part of the political movement that reacts with automatic distrust when men gather to talk about gender roles. Why is that?
Sure, religious people and christians in particular are going to come out with a different view than a strictly random sample of men. Whatever.
Suezoled's comment about getting the men away from their wives so that they can be brainwashed, I find THAT offensive. Men can and do think for themselves in the presence AND absense of their wives, thank you very much.
Men SHOULD go on retreats and talk about gender roles and men's issues. I think this would be a better society if we did!
MoeFaux
Suspicious Mind
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2003
- Messages
- 5,275
Silicon said:
Of course it is! Of course! I just despise PK's even more because they're billed as this elite xtian boys club, and all the men want a part of it. It's spreading the sickness even further.
I don't know about it being sexist, per se, but I might be a little happier if they had a special women's club, too. But damn, I'd feel a whole hell of a lot better if they just gave it all up and treated each other like human beings for real reasons, not made up ones based on fairy tales.
MoeFaux said:
It's not elite. Anyone can go to a Promise-keepers meeting (guys that is.) Just buy a ticket. It's not some type of boy's club, it's a religious seminar.
Well then, give Women of Faith a call.
http://www.womenoffaith.com/
Hey, agreed!
It's a day long pay-to-play revival, and "any number of christian organizations" is an appeal to popularity. Just because so many others do it makes it right?Silicon said:
The context is love your wife as yourself. There is nothing about loving a person as another person, a seperate identity, a seperate flesh, there is no encouragement for a team or a partnership, it is capitaluation to authority. Women to men, men to Christ and the church. Women are the lowest in the hierarchy.
The name doesn't matter. They can call themselves the Fuzzy Wuzzy We Love Bunnies group. It's the message they have, and share that's the issue.
Who is sacrificing? For a man to love his wife as he loves himself and live as the Promise Keepers tell him to live, his wife must also surrender ego, self, and identity.
I'm not asking what Women of Faith is about. They're not the topic.
And what makes it okay to emphasize and encourage these roles? What makes it okay to say "let's go back to old values that are traditional?" As I said before, an emphasis on "tradition" towards a family that consists of a man, woman, and children, strikes a blow against people fighting for basic human rights and recognition (such as homosexuals who want to have rights to marry legally).
So Silicon's stepdad does fine with it. He's not a good Promise Keeper, is he, if he allows his wife a partnership of equals.
Silicon said:
A little anecdote: Twoshanks, a very kind, intelligent person I hold in some regard went to a weekend christian conference. He was immersed in a feeling of well being, and for a while believed he was a christian. Twoshanks isn't stupid, and he's not one to be easily ripped, in most cases. But in a group mentality, where the message is to conform conform conform, it's easy enough to buy into whatever is being sold, especially something so emotional as Christ loving as a man, and a man being told he's special and has a mission from god.
Iwould not stop loving Twoshanks, even if he bought into the Christianity, but it bothered me how easily someone CAN and WILL be "brainwashed." Especially in a fraternity-like environment.
Yes, anyone can buy a ticket, and be told they are special to god, and they should take up activity in the local church, and head the household, for through men they find christ, and through their men the women find god.Silicon said:
If Women of Faith were coming to town and renting giant billboards I get to drive by and see who/what/where/when they are coming, I would object to that as well.
Some Friggin Guy
Muse
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2003
- Messages
- 854
I first heard of the promise keepers from a former manager. He was one.
He didn't tell me about them, but he did say he was a PKer. I assumed that it was some recovering abusers organization. Then I met his wife.
His wife was visually afraid to step out of line with his co-workers. I didn't see any physical signs of abuse, but I have never seen anyone so nervous about what they were saying, doing, wearing, etc. in my entire life. The entire time she was there, her eyes get going back to my manager. It was creepy.
After that, I did a look-up on PK to find out what it was, still thinking it was an "abusers anonymous" kind of thing. I couldn't believe how wrong I was.
He didn't tell me about them, but he did say he was a PKer. I assumed that it was some recovering abusers organization. Then I met his wife.
His wife was visually afraid to step out of line with his co-workers. I didn't see any physical signs of abuse, but I have never seen anyone so nervous about what they were saying, doing, wearing, etc. in my entire life. The entire time she was there, her eyes get going back to my manager. It was creepy.
After that, I did a look-up on PK to find out what it was, still thinking it was an "abusers anonymous" kind of thing. I couldn't believe how wrong I was.
Lucifuge Rofocale
Muse
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2001
- Messages
- 968
What I don't like about the Pk¡s is teh bible crap (ie 90% 
)
But they really have a position about men rights.Sometimes there are abuses on men (specially since some feminist groups have taken control about many government agencies) and they are a much needed help for them.
PS. I'm not deniying that there are lots of abuses on women.But there is also plenty of organizations dedicated exclusively to they.
)But they really have a position about men rights.Sometimes there are abuses on men (specially since some feminist groups have taken control about many government agencies) and they are a much needed help for them.
PS. I'm not deniying that there are lots of abuses on women.But there is also plenty of organizations dedicated exclusively to they.
MetalSeagull
Critical Thinker
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2002
- Messages
- 378
A co-worker has gone to a few PK events, though I don't know if he considers himself a PKer. He's a genuinely nice guy. His wife home schools their kids, so he is the head of their household in the traditional meaning of the term.
I only met his wife once, but she seemed very nice also.
I only met his wife once, but she seemed very nice also.
The thing about the Bible is that you can find in it pretty much what ever you go looking for. Two men could read the passage from Ephesians that Silicon quoted. The jerk will read the part about the husband being the head of the wife and use it as an excuse to justify being a domineering SOB towards his wife. The non jerk will read the part about loving your wife as yourself and think "maybe I should try a little harder to actually remember our aniversary this year." Ultimately, as with a lot of things, what you take out of the Bible depends to a large degree on your pre-existing personal biases.
The problem with religion is that by providing an "authoritative" source for one's personal bias, religion tends to negate the need to examine one's biases.
"If God says X, then X. I don't need to think about it."
Or worse yet, "God didn't explicitly say not X, so it must be OK" (let X equal slavery, racism, etc.).
The problem with religion is that by providing an "authoritative" source for one's personal bias, religion tends to negate the need to examine one's biases.
"If God says X, then X. I don't need to think about it."
Or worse yet, "God didn't explicitly say not X, so it must be OK" (let X equal slavery, racism, etc.).
A wise old possum told me to calm down. Heh.
I do thank everyone for their input. Except that body-snatcher's line about how you're next... not because you are, but...um, okay... you are. But still.. blow the whole plan for alien plant-takeovers so soon already!
I do thank everyone for their input. Except that body-snatcher's line about how you're next... not because you are, but...um, okay... you are. But still.. blow the whole plan for alien plant-takeovers so soon already!