The powerlessness of prayer

[Ron_Tomkins]

I have never met an atheist, in the real world. Since being on the internet and going on forums, I have run across some, especially here.

Not everyone who doesn't believe in a supernatural entity is an atheist. I, for example am an agnostic. If you don't know the difference between the two, you should look it up as well.

I did not have to cherry pick because, previously, I was not getting negative evidence that I had to decide to accept or ignore.

You have not looked "Cherry Picking" on the dictionary have you?

The moment you admitted that the idea of there not being a God worried you, you were indirectly admitting that you are Cherry Picking.

I cannot imagine why anyone would want to not believe in god.

First of all, you're using the wrong words. Most of us would be thrilled to find out that there actually is a Creator. The only difference is that some of us don't take the next step and assume that it is so, without the evidence. Also, some of us don't need for there to be a Creator to find our own meaning in life. We can live not knowing if there is a creator or not, or we can live knowing that there isn't one if we were to find out that there definitively isn't one.

The reason you can't conceive the notion of a world with no God is because you haven't even sat to think in all the parts and possibilities. You've only Cherry Picked the ones that you like. The ones that feel good.

Most people believe in a creator because "they cannot imagine life existing without an Intelligent Designer" They "cannot believe that life can exist without a Creator, a meaning and a purpose".(That is called "Argument from Incredulity" and you should probably include it in the list of terms to get acquainted with) Well, it turns out that just because you can't conceive how something is possible, doesn't make it impossible. You still have to do the research. So what this means is that skeptic people are actually the ones that are willing to believe anything, as long as they see some compelling evidence to support it.

As soon as you open your mind and do the research (I mean, seriously honestly do the research), you gain up enough information and theory to "be able to imagine" how there could be life without a Creator.

And after that, it's just a matter of being honest with oneself.

 

[Marcus]

What if I thought that you have a god, named Truth?

Then you would be using a definition for "god" that doesn't agree with any accepted definition, a god without attributes. You might as well say that god is an artichoke, it makes as much sense.

Why exclude all un-provable gods?

There is no reason to include any mythical creatures at all, be they Sky Daddy, The Flying Spagetti Monster, or pink unicorns.

Because they are inferior to the true god, which stands alone among a group of pretenders.

I don't think that one fantasy can be superior or inferior to another, they are both just fantasies.

 

[quarky]

Ethnikos sure is getting some attention; hammered by veteran skeptics.

Marcus's last line says a lot. Both fantasies.
I'd like to add that the clarity of rational thought is also a fantasy.
There is much to discover, including death.

I'm dissapointed that mono-theism is the main religion show these days.
I like the idea of of watering down god powers, a cabinet of gods, for instance, in case the one and only god went nuts from the pressure.

I could get behind a hybrid sort of polytheism, picking certain gods from different polytheistic cultures.

(I dig Ganeesh, but can't abide Zeuss.)

 

[Uncayimmy]

I believe there is a subconscious, almost genetic memory in all people that is the residue of a mass trauma from word-wide cataclysm, like a pole shift or an asteroid hit. To overcome that, people have to think of something that could protect them, not just from ordinary events, but the occasional special event that normal precautions are powerless to protect us from.

Serious question: If there's a residue from mass trauma like you describe doesn't that mean that the "something" that could protect us failed to do so in the past?

I also ask this with the most sincere intentions and not to be insulting: Are you basically saying your belief in the supernatural stems from fear and wishful thinking that there's something that will protect you? If so, how would your life change if you accepted that there is no protector?

 

[quarky]

I have air bags in my car that have never gone off.
if they never do, my feeling of security will have been unfounded.

 

[RandFan]

I'd like to add that the clarity of rational thought is also a fantasy.

Try fixing your car or curing disease without it.

Please forgive the appeal to emotion but when my 3 year old began having a seizure in my arms once I didn't agonize over which fantasy I would choose to help her. When my car breaks down I don't read tea leaves or pray to leprechauns. I use the "fantasy" of rational thought to fix it.

Quarky, do use rational thought to solve problems or do you rely on dice or tea leaves or perhaps the Tarot?

 

[Ethnikos]

I like you Ethnikos but this seems to just be a lot of clap trap. No different from any other hodge podge of speculation. Everyone left simply to his or her devices has a different idea about what is true. Is there any reason why we should believe in leprechauns over faeries?

I did not come up with this myself, so I can not take credit for this theory. It is another concept I learned from listening to Coast to Coast. There was one of these "world catastrophe" guests who was promoting this idea of a universal traumatized consciousness. He made some seemingly good arguments for it and I kind of adopted it as being as good an explanation for religion, as any.

 

[Ethnikos]

Not everyone who doesn't believe in a supernatural entity is an atheist. I, for example am an agnostic. If you don't know the difference between the two, you should look it up as well.

Sorry about throwing you into a group you do not belong to. I suppose I started out learning about the existence of a god, since I was brought up Christian. I do not recall running across any evidence against there being a god, so I never spent much time contemplating it.
I was married to an agnostic and I remember getting into debates with her over it. Looking back, I think it was a waste of time. I do not remember her presenting any actual arguments against there being a god, just that its existence was something not provable.

 

[RandFan]

I have air bags in my car that have never gone off.
if they never do, my feeling of security will have been unfounded.

Would you take them out and simply get a four leaf clover?

Why the hell do you have a car in the first place? That's just a device put together with rational thought. I'm assuming you don't use a computer to access the Internet, right? That was devised by rational thought. For you it's all mind control and rabbits feet.

It's amazing that you can simply declare rational thought fantasy but don't mind using all of the technology that relies on it.

 

[RandFan]

I did not come up with this myself, so I can not take credit for this theory. It is another concept I learned from listening to Coast to Coast. There was one of these "world catastrophe" guests who was promoting this idea of a universal traumatized consciousness. He made some seemingly good arguments for it and I kind of adopted it as being as good an explanation for religion, as any.

Yeah, someone once told me that there are little tiny people that live in plants. They are just like you and I but they are too small to see. They manufacture the leaves and other plant parts and assemble them.

Hey, it's ancient belief and it sounds as good of an argument as any.

Why use logic and reason when we can just make stuff up or adopt old mythology. You know, the stuff around when 1 of every 2 children died before they reached adult hood. There was sickness, disease and hunger. People spent nearly every waking moment just trying to survive but it was better then because the mythology was ancient.

 

[Ethnikos]

Then you would be using a definition for "god" that doesn't agree with any accepted definition, a god without attributes. You might as well say that god is an artichoke, it makes as much sense.

Here is something from Wikipedia that may contradict that statement:

Pantheons, those deities worshiped in one culture, may include goddesses, gods, and in some cases, abstract concepts. An abstract concept as a deity may indicate a principle or entity that is not seen as in any way resembling a human or an animal, although it may be believed to be capable of some sort of cognitive activity affecting the lives of humans that may be benevolent or malicious.

Here is another quote from Wikipedia:

In Roman mythology, Veritas (meaning truth) was the goddess of truth, a daughter of Saturn and the mother of Virtue.

So, what I was saying may not be so far-fetched.
Here's a cute little snippet from Wikipedia:

Most philosophers hold the view that belief formation is primarily spontaneous and involuntary.

This may not apply to my argument but could it be possible to believe in something without making a conscious decision to do so?

 

[quarky]

Try fixing your car or curing disease without it.

Please forgive the appeal to emotion but when my 3 year old began having a seizure in my arms once I didn't agonize over which fantasy I would choose to help her. When my car breaks down I don't read tea leaves or pray to leprechauns. I use the "fantasy" of rational thought to fix it.

Quarky, do use rational thought to solve problems or do you rely on dice or tea leaves or perhaps the Tarot?

RandFan, I enjoy you; your open mindedness. I'm not a wooster; I'm more interested in bridging the gap between the awesome divide that presents itself on this forum.

When my car breaks down, it is more important to me that the repair man understands cars...that he also believes in Bigfoot is not of major concern.

I'm a liberal democrat, not that it matters...but I'm willing to endure a republican plumber, if he happens to know how to fix my problem.

The point I've been working on is significant, imho.
Thus, i belabour it:

In my own life, the difference between a republican and a democrat is more significant than the difference between an atheist and a lefty Catholic.

I have a feeling that god or no god matters less than Nascar/ no Nascar...as far as who one's neighbors are, and how they get along.

I have good friends that are woosters. Others that are religious. I'm a science guy, to the bone...which is incidental.

Christian skin heads turn me off; same as with my Pagan friends; same as my Jesus friends. It becomes larger than the the religious issue.

My point is to call the bluff on small differences, which I think God or No God falls into...even though we choose to see it as a major deal.

I've never lived next door to satanists, but if they were civil, and took care of their place, I'd be ok with them. same with any neighbor.

I'd have more trouble with neighbors that shared my atheism, but had a thing for machine guns.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

 

[Ethnikos]

Serious question: If there's a residue from mass trauma like you describe doesn't that mean that the "something" that could protect us failed to do so in the past?
Are you basically saying your belief in the supernatural stems from fear and wishful thinking that there's something that will protect you? If so, how would your life change if you accepted that there is no protector?

I seem to be splitting it up, through these different posts, between what you are born with, what you are taught, and what you learn on your own.
What I was talking about there is what you are born with. You can not use logic or reason to dissect it because it exists in a part of you that is indifferent to higher forms of thought.

 

[RandFan]

Do you see what I'm getting at?

If religion were kept out of government and out of schools then I would be less inclined to be concerned about religion. If religion didn't oppress people and enslave them then I would be less inlined to be concerned about religion.

You compare atheists with the left leaning religious and then compare the difference to dems and repubs. I'm not saying that you don't have a point. I believe you actually do. That said I think what makes the religious right a problem isn't the fact that they are republican and I think it is the moderate religious that make way for the extrimists.

So I don't see the world the way you do. Again, not that I completly dismiss your point but I will be here all week. And the next also.

 

[Uncayimmy]

I seem to be splitting it up, through these different posts, between what you are born with, what you are taught, and what you learn on your own.
What I was talking about there is what you are born with. You can not use logic or reason to dissect it because it exists in a part of you that is indifferent to higher forms of thought.

First, I sincerely thank you for taking the time to answer all these questions in what I consider to be a non-combative way. That said...

If we are "born" with this, at what age does it appear? What evidence do you have that it even exists? Clearly you are surrounded by people for whom this innate fear does not exist.

Are you willing to entertain the idea that this fear is not innate but due to other factors in your life experience?

 

[quarky]

Cool.

I'd like the opportunity to make this point more elegantly, as I was a bit hurried tonight.

I'm seeing religion as a paper tiger, I guess.
I see larger differences between other factors, such as drug addict/no drug addict.
Solar energy/nukes.
Led Zepplin/ Barry Manilow.

I'm not defending religion here...I'm calling its bluff. Its a non-issue, overflowing with non-believers. I've got no stats, but my feeling is that there aren't really many religious people. They just say they are for convienence.

(unlike actual Barry Manilow fans, whom might be sincere, god help us)

 

[Ethnikos]

...answer all these questions in what I consider to be a non-combative way.
If we are "born" with this, at what age does it appear? What evidence do you have that it even exists? Clearly you are surrounded by people for whom this innate fear does not exist.
Are you willing to entertain the idea that this fear is not innate but due to other factors in your life experience?

Believe me when i say I get a lot more hostility from "religious" people on Christian forums, and I think people here are pretty nice, in comparison.
I think of this type of desire for religion in humans like a high form of instinct.
You probably heard about the elephants who ran for high ground before the tsunami hit Thailand. I just heard a couple days ago that scientists found evidence for an earlier one that happened there, in the past. It was three thousand years ago. None of those elephants were alive then, so they could not have a personal, first hand memory of it, but they knew what it was and how to survive it. Unless they know how to tell stories to each other, you might be able to consider the idea of a passed-on instinct or a genetic memory.

 

[RandFan]

Cool.

I'd like the opportunity to make this point more elegantly, as I was a bit hurried tonight.

I'm seeing religion as a paper tiger, I guess.
I see larger differences between other factors, such as drug addict/no drug addict.
Solar energy/nukes.
Led Zepplin/ Barry Manilow.

I'm not defending religion here...I'm calling its bluff. Its a non-issue, overflowing with non-believers. I've got no stats, but my feeling is that there aren't really many religious people. They just say they are for convienence.

(unlike actual Barry Manilow fans, whom might be sincere, god help us)

Fair enough. I don't completly agree with you but that's fine.

Thanks.

 

[Uncayimmy]

Believe me when i say I get a lot more hostility from "religious" people on Christian forums, and I think people here are pretty nice, in comparison.
I think of this type of desire for religion in humans like a high form of instinct.
You probably heard about the elephants who ran for high ground before the tsunami hit Thailand. I just heard a couple days ago that scientists found evidence for an earlier one that happened there, in the past. It was three thousand years ago. None of those elephants were alive then, so they could not have a personal, first hand memory of it, but they knew what it was and how to survive it. Unless they know how to tell stories to each other, you might be able to consider the idea of a passed-on instinct or a genetic memory.

Are you saying that the elephants believed in a higher power because their ancestors were killed by tsunamis?

Regardless, you failed to answer my question. Well, I guess your proof about it being innate in humans is your belief that elephants ran away in advance of the tsunami. Well, to the best of my knowledge that didn't happen. Check out this report using satellite data to track their movements.

That aside, what about humans? When do humans begin to exhibit this innate fear that requires a belief in a higher power?

And are you willing to entertain the idea that your fear and desire for a higher power is really a result of your experiences rather than innate?

 

[Ethnikos]

Are you saying that the elephants believed in a higher power because their ancestors were killed by tsunamis?

Regardless, you failed to answer my question. Well, I guess your proof about it being innate in humans is your belief that elephants ran away in advance of the tsunami. Well, to the best of my knowledge that didn't happen. Check out this report using satellite data to track their movements.

I was not saying religion is innate. I am saying that the desire to believe in a religion may stem from something that is innate.
What I said earlier about a news blurb on the radio and they have a funny way of condensing stories into 15 second bites. Here is part of a story I just found that it might have come from:

A team working on Phra Thong, a barrier island along the hard-hit west coast of Thailand, unearthed evidence of at least three previous major tsunamis in the preceding 2,800 years, the most recent from about 550 to 700 years ago. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/10/081029141037.htm

The story of the tracked elephants had to do with them having ESP. That does not affect my argument. The story says they moved away from the beach after sensing something. My argument would be that once they sensed something happening, they knew to move away from the beach because they somehow knew they were in danger.