The powerlessness of prayer

[Ethnikos]

Ummm, critical thinking and YouTube are odd cousins indeed. Out of curiosity, what kind of videos were those 14 that you posted on YouTube?

From my post you could probably figure out I was interested in camera angles. Most of the actual time I burnt up on the projects was finding photos of the area around the WTC.(I have 1,800 photos in my reference library, on my hard drive, all sorted out) I worked on placing all the buildings and working out where the different videos and photos were taken from. I was able to debunk a whole mess of conspiracy type videos you can find in abundance on youtube. There are people who have this idea that all the video was made in some master computer and that they fed in information to produce what they wanted to put out. They claim that you can find discrepancies in the videos and that some were impossible to have been made, and that some were swapped out and changed to look like they were shot from another location.
I also got into what the actual affects on the environment that a big plane would make, and kind of took care of the no-plane notion, by showing that they are visible in the tapes.
I went from one to the other and pointed out how they were wrong. I got into a couple text conversations with some very angry and hostile video makers who did not like me exposing their flawed theories.(this was not my original intent, finding hoaxes, it just happened through my learning)
I was a little obsessed about the whole 9/11 thing because of what happened in my story. My theory is that a movie was made before hand as a backup just in case there was not a real one available to show live. (The ones that were shown live were from local station traffic choppers and were not clear enough to give the true impact quality of what happened.) Of course I do not have any evidence and that is not in my videos. It is just the motivation behind my own research.

 

[Ethnikos]

That's the problem. Imagine someone who witnessed the very same event and concluded that space aliens are the only possible explanation for an invisible force capable of propelling someone so violently. Then imagine someone who said it was not an angel that helped you off the cliff but rather a leprechaun. When asked to consider other possible explanations, the leprechaun-believer says "No other explanation has ever entered my mind." Once one says those words, then one has closed one's mind to other possibilities. That person doesn't understand that evidence must be evaluated by considering all possibilities before selecting the most probable explanation.

This may be what kind of benefit I could expect to get out of posting these stories on this forum. Alternative expanations. If I was a UFO person, I would probably think it was them doing it. [IMGL]http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd56/jmdewey60/idyllwild_lilyRock.jpg[/IMGL]
[IMGL]http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd56/jmdewey60/ChiefTahquitzsmall2.jpg[/IMGL]
I had a legend already in my mind when this fire incident happened. From where it happened, you could see what is sometimes called Tahquitz Rock, pretty much the same view as pictured here. It was named for Chief Tahquitz, also visualized here. (taken from a video about the Legend)
When I was camping on the top of the mountain, as mentioned in the cliff story, a ranger came to our campfire and told his scary story. He was coming down from the Tahquitz Peak look-out tower to gather the horses he had left in the meadow, below it.(still on top of the main mountain) He was enclosed in a purple mist and his radio quit working. He looked back at the peak and the tower was gone. He thinks he was in a time changing phenomenon and went into the past. He saw Chief Tahquitz. When he looked at the horses, they had Indian brands on them.
There is a bigger legend about the Chief, but that was his own experience with the ghost that is believed to still wander around that area. I considered myself to be in his domain, years later, when we were in this valley below the mountain. It made sense that if someone was being punished for abusing the sacred Indian ritual of the peyote, it would be Tahquitz, doing it.

 

[I Ratant]

It is logically impossible to be a "critical thinker", AND a conspiracy twinky.
There is no thought or intellectual activity involved in CTing.
In addition to all the videos of the event, there's 10s of thousands of persons WHO WERE THERE and saw it occur.
However you may manipulate the information, 9/11 happened just like the official version says it did.

 

[RandFan]

It made sense that if someone was being punished for abusing the sacred Indian ritual of the peyote, it would be Tahquitz, doing it.

"Sacred"? What deems it sacred? Superstition? Mythology? Is Mount Olympus sacred?

Come on dude, it's mythology. Nothing more. Join us in the 21st century.

 

[Ali]

No-one likes getting punished: maybe that’s why everyone’s turned blind and dumb to reality.
Am I right or wrong?

 

[Ethnikos]

In addition to all the videos of the event, there's 10s of thousands of persons WHO WERE THERE and saw it occur.
However you may manipulate the information, 9/11 happened just like the official version says it did.

I do not manipulate the information. I am very careful to get the info right.
I found where other conspiracy theorists were presenting things in a deceitful way. Like I said, I made these videos for youtube, for my own information. Stuff that I wanted to know, that had no explanation or false information, I found out myself. I was able to decide that real planes hit the buildings and the videos of them hitting are real enough. The differences can be explained by the different cameras used.
I do not think that nothing happened on 9-11. I do believe it was planned. All I am saying about my theory is that there was something on TV here in Florida that was run "live", that does not show up in the record. For all I know, it could have been the complete video of what was later submitted to CNN as the Battery Park video, supposedly filmed by Hezakhani. The announcer said,"We are going to someone on the ground, in the area of the World Trade Center." It cut to a pier and the camera was pointing down the river. You could see the plane flying straight toward the camera, go over it (not directly) and hit the building. I had to go to work so I did not watch the constant repeating of other tapes, that would have confused my mind. I told my girlfriend's son to turn off the TV because they were brainwashing him. So, I did not have a bunch of clutter in my head and I was left with a clear memory of what I saw.
I never thought there was a problem until a year ago because I never watched the videos and figured everyone saw what I did. There was a video made, and it could have been live or it could have been pre-made. I saw it once and then it was buried.

 

[quarky]

The forgiving aspect of Jesus must have some strong appeal to people whom have screwed up royally and want to feel like they could still have a chance; be loved; live forever in heaven.

Reality isn't great on death row. Prayer couldn't hurt.

 

[Ethnikos]

"Sacred"? What deems it sacred? Superstition? Mythology? Is Mount Olympus sacred?
it's mythology. Nothing more.

[IMGL]http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd56/jmdewey60/Lily.jpg[/IMGL]
It is held sacred by the Indians. I do not subscribe to it myself, as a ritual. I guess I was involved indirectly by taking mescaline that one time. It was enough for me and I had no further interest in it.
My sister does.(the ritualistic part of the religion, not taking drugs) Her young daughter was being bothered by a ghost so they had a ritual with the tribal elders, out on the reservation. They used some form of hallucinogen to go into a trance to rid her of the annoying spirit.

Just so no one freaks out, it was the elders, not the kid, taking the tea or whatever.
This was three years ago, so she was younger than this current pic.

 

[RandFan]

It is held sacred by the Indians. I do not subscribe to it myself, as a ritual. I guess I was involved indirectly by taking mescaline that one time. It was enough for me and I had no further interest in it.
My sister does. Her young daughter was being bothered by a ghost so they had a ritual with the tribal elders, out on the reservation. They used some form of hallucinogen to go into a trance to rid her of the annoying spirit.

There is no evidence for ghosts.

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

So Ethnikos, there's a question you still haven't answered and it's the one I consider the most important. And please try to answer it in short, accurate sentences.

2) How does considering the possibility that maybe there is no God, make you feel? Better? Worse? Indifferent?

 

[Ali]

It all depends who prays and what s/he prays for.

 

[Ethnikos]

There is no evidence for ghosts.

I never talked to the girl about it. Her mother did and I believe her. The girl would see a man standing by her bed at night. He looked like a cowboy. A bunch of Indians were massacred on the land where the house was built. My sister thinks it was a ghost of one of the killers. Maybe he is afraid he did not finish the job.
My sister believed her and took what seemed to her to be the best course of action to deal with the problem. Apparently the ritual worked.
Maybe you can not prove anything about ghosts. To the person having the experience, it is real enough. It might be cruel to just ignore it or tell the kid that there is something wrong with her.

 

[Ethnikos]

So Ethnikos, there's a question you still haven't answered and it's the one I consider the most important. And please try to answer it in short, accurate sentences.
2) How does considering the possibility that maybe there is no God, make you feel? Better? Worse? Indifferent?

I think I tried to. It would worry me to think there are all these spirits running around without someone over them to apply some sort of restraint. So that makes me no better than the most primitive pagan.
I guess the fundamental question would be what I would feel if I thought there were no spirits. Perhaps a little helpless. You like to think there is something more powerful than the four winds or whatever. You have the elements or the material forces at work in the world that makes people vulnerable to catastrophe. You would like to think there was something more powerful than those, who might have pity on men. This is just being human.
The tower of Babel was built by people who thought that technology could make them so they did not need gods, anymore.

 

[RandFan]

To the person having the experience, it is real enough. It might be cruel to just ignore it or tell the kid that there is something wrong with her.

I would do no such thing as to tell her there is something wrong with her.

You need to learn about Joe Nickel. Joe has spent his life examine paranormal claims. Many about ghosts. Joe has never told anyone that there was something wrong them. Joe is a very decent and conscientious person who cares deeply for others. Joe has demonstrated to many why they were wrong about what they thought they were experiencing. Most people are very grateful to Joe for his work.

Joe has investigated hundreds of claims, many famous ones, and to date he has never found anything remotely plausible for ghosts.

Ethnikos, I've had the opportunity to meet skeptical investigators and I follow many by their articles and pod casts. These are sincere and serious people. These folks are often experts in their fields and are willing to accept any evidence for the supernatural.

To date? Bupkus.

 

[six7s]

...I've had the opportunity to meet skeptical investigators and I follow many by their articles and pod casts. These are sincere and serious people. These folks are often experts in their fields and are willing to accept any evidence for the supernatural.

To date? Bupkus.

And, as tomorrow could be the day it goes to Bupkus + 1 there are many, many people ready and waiting to consider any evidence...

Yep... evidence...

Not just anecdotes

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I don't think I'm changing the definition of prayer. Historically, prayer and meditation have often been synonymous. Many prayers, including those in Christianity, focus on the ineffable qualities of God. God doesn't need to be told He's ineffable. The prayer is to get the one praying closer to understanding Him.



I agree mostly. My point is that many types of prayer are far more about affecting oneself than the rest of the Universe.

And I disagree if you believe prayers can't make you a better person. Someone with anger management issues who learns to pray at the critical moment could, at least conceivably, be helped. A trivial example, but it gets to my point of prayer not being only about asking for goodies.

So praying to end the suffering of young children is selfish so we shouldn't expect that to have any effect should we? And of course let's ignore the fact when people pray for relief from suffering they are essentially asking 'God' to stop causing that suffering.

No, you are doing just what I said, rationalizing there must be a reason prayer has no more effect than rubbing a rabbit's foot.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

You can google:
"Positive Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer in a Coronary Care Unit Population," Randolph C. Byrd, M.D.
There is also a critical analysis of this study at http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/gary_posner/godccu.html

Been there, done that.

Wait and I'll link you to the thread. I'm tired of posting the same evidence refuting this exaggeration of evidence.


Nevermind. I am so pleased Hokulele actually recalled the thread and posted the link for us. I'm flattered.

 

[Uncayimmy]

Perhaps a little helpless. You like to think there is something more powerful than the four winds or whatever.

Can you explain this mentality to me? I've never understood it. Why do you feel less helpless when you believe there's a more powerful being that can defy all the known laws of nature and strike you dead on a whim? That would make me feel vulnerable. All this universe needs is some variable that can never possibly be controlled for and that can defy all the known laws of nature.

 

[Ethnikos]

Been there, done that.
Wait and I'll link you to the thread. I'm tired of posting the same evidence refuting this exaggeration of evidence.

I just heard someone last night, going on and on about the study, on Coast to Coast. Apparently they did not get the memo.
You kind of ruined it for me and I will not bring that one up, again.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Ah yes, Coast to Coast, one of our favorite Woo radio stations. Was that on Art Bell or George Noory's program? Phil Plait, our new fearless leader, has been the voice of reason on Noory's programs a number of times refuting the Planet X claims as well as the claims the US Moon landing was a hoax.

I don't see anything in the Coast to Coast Oct line up that matches your info, Ethnikos. Care to point out which of these credible program topics you were listening to? Last night was

Saturday November 1st, 2008
The Life and Times of Russell Targ
Writer and physicist Russell Targ discussed his life and his role in the creation of the government's Remote Viewing program. In addition to elaborating on his famous work in the RV field, he shared insight into his lifelong struggles with facial blindness...

Maybe it was earlier than that?

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