The powerlessness of prayer

[Ethnikos]

I don't have any evidence other than your testimony. I have no way to gauge your credibility.

About ten years ago I was starting to tell this story to a woman I worked with. I said I saw my friend get thrown into a fire.
She stopped me and asked if he was on peyote. I was stunned. I asked her how she could know that. She gave me an odd look that said she knew a lot of things. (actually, I think she said "mescaline". That would have seemed to her to fit the story because most people would not have taken the peyote, the way he did. Mescaline is a concentrated extract of peyote. I took some once and ended up injuring myself, but that was because I lost my concentration at a bad time.)
So, apparently, this could be one of the hazards of messing around with this substance, invoking spirits.
I guess my point is that to certain people, my story would be very credible.
I am not selling anything or looking for converts, so, I do not have a reason to lie. I feel like I have had a strange life, in certain ways and I think it might be important to share some of it. It would defeat the purpose to be anything but completely honest about it.

 

[RandFan]

I feel like I have had a strange life, in certain ways and I think it might be important to share some of it. It would defeat the purpose to be anything but completely honest about it.

That's fine. I said I would choose option #2. Nothing you've written absolutely precludes #3 but it doesn't matter because I still have #2.

Ethnikos, I was a true believer. I followed Nostradomus and other New Age clap trap. I believed in the power of prayer and had a number of anecdotes that I used to testify as to the power of my belief in prayer. I've always considered myself a very honest person. I was commited to finding the truth. It took a long time but slowly by slowly I opened my eyes to the power of faith and how it can color one's perception. It is faith that keeps Hindus Hindu, Sikhs Sikh, Muslims Muslim, Mormons Mormon, etc.,

All beliefs are not only possible but real in the minds of those who have faith.

 

[Frozenwolf150]

This makes...well, not sense. Maybe it makes cookies. Really poorly baked cookies.

Let's just say that what the cookies are made of will put a cookie-eating grin on your face once you taste them.

And yes, I’m protected from dogs at all times.

Ooh, bad move. You really should have kept the dogs around, because now there's nothing to ward off demonic fox spirits. Is that fried tofu I smell?

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

You seem to have a different standard of acceptance of evidence than I do.
And it may depend on what you might consider as a god.
My evidence for my own use, comes from my own personal experience.
I will concede that it does not prove anything about there being a God on a throne in a cloud with a white beard, directing and judging the universe.
Let's say that my internal evidence is good enough to convince myself, beyond a doubt, that there are spirit beings who can take human form or do things within our plane of existence, without taking form.
That would leave me free to consider that these things or phenomenon are just a natural part of the universe but operate on a different dimensional existence. It makes me feel curious. The thing is, I would still try to create some sort of order out of it and probably decide that there needs to be something or someone to have ultimate control. That is human nature.

No, my friend. I don't seem to have a different standard of acceptance of evidence.

You have an erroneous concept of evidence.

Anecdotes (Which is the only thing you have provided here) are not evidence.


If you don't believe me, check a couple dictionaries and encyclopedias. They will give you a clear definition of what evidence is. Nowhere around the definition will you find anything regarding anecdotes as a valid factor that defines an evidence.

Anecdotes, personal beliefs, individual internal experiences... all of these things are the very anathema of evidence. They are everything that Evidence isn't.

That's what you have to understand accept.

So just be straight and honest and say it: "I don't want evidence. I want to believe what I want no matter how much the evidence contradicts it"
But don't tell me that you have a versonal standard of evidence because that's just being dishonest. Understand what evidence is first, because you don't.

 

[Ethnikos]

Nowhere around the definition will you find anything regarding anecdotes as a valid factor that defines an evidence.
That's what you have to understand accept.
So just be straight and honest and say it: "I don't want evidence. I want to believe what I want no matter how much the evidence contradicts it"
But don't tell me that you have a versonal standard of evidence because that's just being dishonest. Understand what evidence is first, because you don't.

Anecdotes are not much good as evidence to people who it did not happen to. I understand that. For my own personal use, and to influence my own opinion, personal experiences are not just anecdotes, as if it was a story someone was telling me. For you to read a story that I wrote, about something I witnessed, it would not qualify as evidence, for you.
I do not know what contradictory evidence you mean. You have a negative evidence, based on an opinion about fairness. That my experiences can not be real because they do not happen to everyone. You make a judgment about reality, based on your perception of how you think things should be.
To use the fire story for example; I saw my friend have something happen to him that, from my point of view, was against his will, (like the look of surprise on his face and the voluntary body movement that was intended to counteract what was being done to him, and the un-natural aspect of how he was abruptly pushed, with the corresponding deflection in his body) and then another thing that was just impossible, in any normal way of explanation. While it was happening, it was very clear what was going on. The fact that the hand that grabbed him was invisible did not detract from me being able to know that there was a hand on him. It was not something I surmised, later, upon reflection. I knew it, as it was happening. No other explanation has ever entered my mind or any negative evidence existed for me to ignore. It was just an event and I interpreted it, as I saw it.

 

[six7s]

Anecdotes are not much good as evidence to people who it did not happen to. I understand that.

Maybe something you don't understand - and it is kinda counter-intuitive at first - is that anecdotes are not much good as evidence for anyone that is keen on thinking critically about such subjects

Evidence is evidence

If your anecdotes contained evidence, then that would be cool... but they don't



Please, don't take the above as a personal attack... my only bug-bear with you is that your looooooong-ish posts that are nothing but anecdote

 

[RandFan]

Anecdotes are not much good as evidence to people who it did not happen to. I understand that. For my own personal use, and to influence my own opinion, personal experiences are not just anecdotes, as if it was a story someone was telling me. For you to read a story that I wrote, about something I witnessed, it would not qualify as evidence, for you.

If you spend much time following folks like Randi, Joe Nickel and the New England Skeptics society you will soon find out that your kind of anecdotes are quite common place and often debunked. It doesn't take too long to realize that people make mistakes, embelish or are delusional. These folks aren't out to disprove things for the sake of disproving them. They just realize that there are rational explanations for the world. After awhile a clear pattern forms from the noise and it's not supernatural. Oh, I should throw in Brian Dunning and Susan Blackmore.

 

[Ethnikos]

Just to add a postscript to that story, I should talk a little about the aftermath. I knew from experience with this person that if I wanted to find out what really happened to him, I needed to get to it right away. His ego was a barrier to the truth, so I had to get to the truth before he had the opportunity to construct something to protect his ego.
I ran after him and tried to help him, if necessary. I fully expected to find him in terrible shape and having sustained serious injury. I looked at his arm that went into the fire and I could not see even a singed hair. That in itself was a little troubling to me. That he could be thrown into a huge fire and not have any damage. Very odd. It made me feel that there was some kind of restraint on whatever it was that had done this to him. As if it was given the power to scare the hell out of him but not to kill him.(it very well could have just left him where he was. He would have had to roll over right into the bed of big burning embers from the logs that been burning there all night) It makes me think it was a lesson he needed, to get an attitude adjustment.
He never said a word about it. He was shocked by what had happened, but his ego never allowed him to talk about it. For years that I was around him after this, he never told anyone this story. I had a certain respect for him and I never told the story to anyone who knew him. I do not mind writing about it on the internet because no one knows who I am or can trace it back to him.
PS to the post script. If he had done this himself and was able to pull it off, somehow, without being hurt, he would have bragged about it. So, it seems he did learn a lesson about ego and pride.

 

[RandFan]

So, it seems he did learn a lesson about ego and pride.

We'll I'm glad you got to share. I hope you understand that it has no bearing on anyone who is a skeptic and critical thinker. We've heard it all before. We had a guy here who used to see demons on a regular basis. There was a guy that said he could blind everyone and then restore everyone's sight as proof that god lives (he wanted money to restore the sight). A guy that said he could levitate. Folks who have figured out the meaning of life based on numerology or patterns in the sky. People who have found god in solipsism. Hell, I've been here for years and have heard just about everything. Your story is rather pedestrian actually. Please don't be offended but, meh~. I wouldn't go out of my way to pass it on to friends as interesting. The guy who saw demons now, that was a story.

 

[RandFan]

Forgive me for my stream of consciousness but it always seems that there is a level of narcissism to all of these things. A kind of look at me quality and even a messiah complex. Folks want to save others by sharing their sacred knowledge.

It's kinda like the urban legends that contain advice and or a warning. Some people seem to have a need for some elevation and to be a source of salvation for others. It's sometimes couched in humility but it's always self aggrandizing in some way.

You might have more luck on a believers sight.

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

I do not know what contradictory evidence you mean.

That's because I never said such thing.
Take a deep breath, relax, clear your mind and carefully read again what I wrote.

Reading comprehension is the key to successful dialogue.

You have a negative evidence, based on an opinion about fairness. That my experiences can not be real because they do not happen to everyone.

My friend, that is an awfully poor translation of what I said. You have no understanding of what evidence means. Again, take some time and do some research yourself. I'm too tired to try to explain it. I feel that even if I did, you would keep twisting my words. My final theory is: For you to understand something that is new to you, you must first want to understand it. My impression is: you don't want to. What you want is believe in God. Then, by all means, believe. I'm not beating myself up anymore.

The information available for us to educate ourselves about the real world is out there. Whenever, if, you become interested, you can always visit your local bookstore and read.

 

[Ethnikos]

Maybe something you don't understand - and it is kinda counter-intuitive at first - is that anecdotes are not much good as evidence for anyone that is keen on thinking critically about such subjects

If it was me hearing this stuff from someone else, I do not think I would have any trouble thinking critically about it. Maybe it is something that is harder to do with your own story. I think people have their own recollection of events and are adverse to the idea that they could be wrong about how they remember things.
For example, I have a recollection about what happened on 9/11 that is disturbing to me. About a year ago, I started watching youtube videos about it and was perplexed that I never found one that matched what I saw.
I was working second shift, so my girlfriend had to wake me up to watch what was going on, on TV. I watched live and from the ground, a plane fly over the camera and hit the second tower. There does not exist a tape of that. I have a good idea of where it would have been taken from. It would have been close to the Hezakhani tape that seems to have been taken from the top of a ferry boat, tied up at the Battery Park pier. That tape was not shown on TV until like one am, that night. It only shows the plane after it had flown over him.
I studied this for a long time and made fourteen videos on youtube about the second tower being hit. Like I said, I had to go to work and did not watch any other video, after the big collapse. They never showed the tape of what I saw earlier. I think about going under hypnoses to go back and see what I witnessed that morning. At the time it happened, I knew nothing about the geography of lower Manhattan, so I could not tell what I was looking at exactly. If I could bring back that memory, I imagine that I could tell exactly where the camera was that filmed that crash. The best I can do right now is to think it had to be from in front of the Coast Guard station. Another odd thing about how memory works.
I guess my point is that I think I am capable of critical thinking but there is a built in disadvantage when dealing with your own account of things.

 

[six7s]

If you ARE open to the possibility that your anecdotes might not qualify as evidence, then you may well find the following (short) YouTube videos interesting

The colour changing card trick - from www.quirkology.com. (Richard Wiseman)


Awareness Test: How many passes the team in white make



---------

P.S. To quote Special Agent Dale Cooper, "the owls are not what they seem", no matter how much coffee you drink

 

[Ethnikos]

You might have more luck on a believers sight.

I did not, actually, on what I thought was a believer site, namely Abovetopsecret. I figured it was people who believed in UFOs and stuff. I was on a thread about demons. I used this story to show there might be such a thing. It did not fly with that crowd. I got some questioning about whether he had done it to himself. You seem to have a different approach, having to do with reasoning.
So, I did not have any expectation of anyone buying this, since this is a forum for skeptics. I figured I would tell my little stories but that it would not count any more than a vote in a poll.
So, my vote is that prayers are useless, but the underlying belief is useful. Meaning you can not change the mind of the giver of wishes but you can change yourself into a person who will be thrown some crumbs, from time to time, instead of someone who has to be slapped around.

 

[Ethnikos]

People who have found god in solipsism.

That's funny. I had to look it up, but it sounds like the kind of stuff you find on ATS.

 

[psy kick]

I have asked God to stop rain and snow before, and by gum, he always has. of course, there is no way to go back in time and test not asking and see if it stopped.

 

[six7s]

...of course, there is no way to go back in time and test not asking and see if it stopped.

You could always commission Slartibartfast to build and install another Earth and moon 'six months away' from us (on the side of the sun)

youtube.com/watch?v=MbNtlS69HhU

 

[Ladewig]

No other explanation has ever entered my mind or any negative evidence existed for me to ignore. It was just an event and I interpreted it, as I saw it.

That's the problem. Imagine someone who witnessed the very same event and concluded that space aliens are the only possible explanation for an invisible force capable of propelling someone so violently. Then imagine someone who said it was not an angel that helped you off the cliff but rather a leprechaun. When asked to consider other possible explanations, the leprechaun-believer says "No other explanation has ever entered my mind." Once one says those words, then one has closed one's mind to other possibilities. That person doesn't understand that evidence must be evaluated by considering all possibilities before selecting the most probable explanation.

 

[applecorped]

For example, I have a recollection about what happened on 9/11 that is disturbing to me. About a year ago, I started watching youtube videos about it and was perplexed that I never found one that matched what I saw.

I studied this for a long time and made fourteen videos on youtube about the second tower being hit. Like I said, I had to go to work and did not watch any other video, after the big collapse. They never showed the tape of what I saw earlier. I think about going under hypnoses to go back and see what I witnessed that morning. At the time it happened, I knew nothing about the geography of lower Manhattan, so I could not tell what I was looking at exactly. If I could bring back that memory, I imagine that I could tell exactly where the camera was that filmed that crash. The best I can do right now is to think it had to be from in front of the Coast Guard station. Another odd thing about how memory works.
I guess my point is that I think I am capable of critical thinking but there is a built in disadvantage when dealing with your own account of things.

Ummm, critical thinking and YouTube are odd cousins indeed. Out of curiosity, what kind of videos were those 14 that you posted on YouTube?

 

[RandFan]

That's funny. I had to look it up, but it sounds like the kind of stuff you find on ATS.

If you are interested there is a world of understanding out there. Start with the early Greek Philosophers, Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle.

One thing that strikes me about the folks that come where with some insight or other is that they seem to ignorant of the scientific methoc, skepticism, critical thinking, philosophy and epistimolgy (knowledge). The early Greeks gave humans an amazing gift and it has allowed us to get to travel to the moon. It is a way to figure out what is and is not likely to be true.

You seem like a sincere guy Ethnikos. Please understand that there is nothing in your story that is persuasive or particularly interesting. I don't at all mean to demean or belittle you. It's just that we've been there and done that.

If you are sincerly interested in understanding this event then you are at the right place. Though you will likely have to be patient to come to any understanding. If you are here to convince others that this is an event that would hold any signficance for skeptics then I'm affraid you are in for a disapointment. Absent any evidence other than your word we've got to be skeptical. It's just the nature of the beast.